MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_01D475D5.320FD810" This document is a Single File Web Page, also known as a Web Archive file. If you are seeing this message, your browser or editor doesn't support Web Archive files. Please download a browser that supports Web Archive, such as Windows?Internet Explorer? ------=_NextPart_01D475D5.320FD810 Content-Location: file:///C:/B1334A50/110.htm Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" login bonus bookmaker sportsbook_login bonus best lottery sites uk_login bonus royal panda sports app

Yukon Legislative Assembly

Whitehorse, Yukon

Monday, November 5, 2018 — 1:00 p.m.<= /o:p>

&= nbsp;

Speaker: I w= ill now call the House to order.

We wil= l proceed at this time with prayers.

&= nbsp;


Daily Routine

Speaker:= 195;We will proceed at this t= ime with the Order Paper.

Introduction of visitors.

Introduction of Visitors

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I hope that my colleagues will all help us welcome a number of visitors here today in the gallery, many of whom are here for the tribute to the music, a= rt and drama program. We have with us Mary Sloan, Jeff Nordlund, Carolyn Westberg, David Ka= nary and Brian Fidler, all current and former instructors at the school. We also have with us some former students: Eliza= beth Hall; David Sutton; Betty Sutton, the mother of a former student; Jessica H= all; and Emily Farrell. We also have with us Dave Sloan, Anne Daub and Shaun Kitchen. We have — very welcome here today — the current MAD cl= ass: Aaron, Makiah, Arden, Florence, Chris, Liam, Rémie, Arlene, Angel, Rory, Layla, Selena, Ali= a, Cadence, Riley, Marina, Maeve, Gabe, Ella, Caius, Anais, Ella, Luna, Kaylee, Jason, Louve and Aliyah.

Thank = you all for being here.



Hon. Mr. Pillai: Mr. Speaker, it’s a little bit out of step with our normal procedure, but I just want to recognize a couple of individuals who = will be here. I think they’re probably on the other side of the door there, but they will be coming to see us: Scott and Jackie Dickson, whom we will h= ave a tribute to in a little bit — as well as Matt Ball and Rod Jaco= b, both from Energy, Mines and Resources. They will hopefully be with us in the next couple of minutes.



Hon. Mr. Streicker: <= span lang=3DEN-CA>Brian Fidler was just welcomed int= o this Legislature, but I thought I should acknowledge that last summer he was cho= sen as Yukon’s representative as part of Canada 150 to take his infamous theatre in the bush as part of Ramshackle Theatre to Gatineau. It was a very successful production. I had the privilege of getting to see it, and I just think it’s quite an accomplishment. I wonder if we can just say thank= you and welcome.


&= nbsp;

Ms. Hanson: I just want to ask my colleagues to join me in welcoming Steve Geick and Paul Johnston from the YEU and some of their colleagues.



Speaker: Tri= butes.


In recognition of 25= th anniversary of the music, art and drama program

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I rise today on behalf to the Yukon Liberal government to pay tribute to the 25th anniversary of the music, art and drama prog= ram. For a quarter of a century, this program that we know as “MAD” = has given Yukon’s aspiring young artists a place to hone their craft as p= art of their high school career.

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, I am quite mindful of the fact that perhaps I should be dramatic today in f= ront of all of these students who are such great performers, but I will do my be= st to keep it on track.

MAD is= a very demanding program. Each semester, students and staff put on three shows, and great shows they are. Students get a solid foundation in all aspects of the= ater production, including acting, stagecraft, music, dance and playwriting fundamentals. They develop skills in self-expression, self-direction, creativity, cooperation, adaptability and conflict resolution. These skills= are invaluable and are a way of the future of education — not just here i= n the Yukon but everywhere. Our redesigned curriculum encourages student-centred hands-on learning, and this is something that MAD has been teaching successfully for 25 years.

MAD is= just one of the many programs offered at the Wood Street Centre School and all of th= ese programs focus on student-centred hands-on learning opportunities. The personalized and flexible learning approaches offered at Wood Street Centre School are in line with the interests, needs and aspirations of Yukon stude= nts.

As I n= oted, this style of education delivery is the way of the future and we look forward to continuing to deliver these experiential programs for years to come. Wood Street Centre School’s programs are extremely popular and let students expand their experiences. From its beginning at the Yukon Arts Centre in 19= 92 to its home at the Wood Street Centre, the program’s legacy can be se= en all around us. Former MAD students have gone on to become dance teachers, actors, musicians, art administrators and filmmakers — to name but a = few. One of the program’s current teachers, Carolyn Westberg, is even an alumna of the program.

For th= e last number of weeks, MAD students were very busy with their final preparations = for one of their biggest productions of the year, the Halloween haunted house. = The students did such a great job to spook our community.

MAD wo= uld not exist without the support and contributions of countless educators and arts community members over the years. MAD was founded by teachers Ross Pet= erson and Jeff Nordlund. They were quickly joined by = Mary Sloan, who taught MAD for 16 years. Dale Cooper was a long-time dance teach= er and was very involved in MAD’s beginnings. Today, teachers Carolyn Westberg and Dave Kanary = continue to deliver this exemplary Yukon program.

The la= unch of MAD in 1992 was possible thanks to James Boyles, the Yukon Arts Centre executive director, who has since passed away; the superintendent at the ti= me, Fred Smith; Principal Gary Nohr; and the Y= ukon Arts Centre technical director, Rodger Lantz. This is a wonderful opportuni= ty to also thank the educators and artists from our community who have helped = to teach students through the years.

At the= heart of the program are the students who give their all to their art. I have had the pleasure of knowing some past students of the MAD program, and they are wonderful people who still talk about their fantastic experiences in the MAD program. It truly shapes students.

To the= students who have participated in this demanding program over 25 years, we love watc= hing you grow as performers and artists. Our community is better for it. =

For a = quarter of a century, MAD has been sowing the seeds of Yukon’s theatre and performance arts scene. We look forward to enjoying MAD performances and watching our young people find their talent for many more years to come.



Mr. Istchenko: I rise on behalf of the Yukon Party Official Opposition to pay tribute to the music, art and drama program as it celebrates its 25th anniversa= ry in the Yukon. This is one of those programs in school where acting up in cl= ass is probably encouraged. For two and a half decades, MAD has gained in popularity both with high school students and with the public, who eagerly = look forward to the very dedicated students of MAD bringing talent and creativit= y to the stage. Students who have participated in MAD over the years have been provided with solid fundamentals in so many areas, including acting, singin= g, dancing and stagecraft. Many go on to further their careers in one of these areas, and MAD has proven to provide the skills needed for students to ente= r a variety of university programs and jobs in theatre and production.

MAD for grades 9 and 10 is held during the fall semester. Duri= ng their time in the program, students are involved in the fundamentals that I mentioned and also receive credits for both English and social studies. MAD= for grades 11 and 12 is held in the spring semester, and not only do they have a chance to build on those skills of drama, acting, music, dance, playwriting= and stagecraft, but they are able to complete their English, socials, career an= d personal planning, acting and other fine arts, and applied skill credits.

MAD is= available to students in all Yukon schools, and I see one student from the school whe= re I am an alumni — St. Elias Community School. Good to see you in here, J= ay. On that note, his brother and sister also went to MAD over the years too.

As the= father of a MAD student, I have seen first-hand all that the program has to offer. I would encourage any student with just a little inclination to perform, or e= ven if you don’t like to perform — guess what? They will teach you. Look into MAD and see what it can offer you. Even if you don’t have a child in the program, one other thing that I can tell you first-hand is that the performances are wonderful. It doesn’t matter which MAD class it = is — usually every single class makes the front page of our local paper,= so you’re doing a great job. It is worth checking out because MAD fundra= ises through ticket sales and your support helps to keep the program alive and h= elps to create further opportunities for students.

Thanks= to all the MAD teachers, organizers, students and volunteers, past and present, for your dedication to music, arts and drama in our community.


&= nbsp;

Ms. White: It is an absolute pleasure to rise on behalf of the Yukon NDP caucus to celebr= ate the 25th anniversary of the music, art and drama program. As it = says on the website, MAD is an experiential learning program where students are immersed in all areas of the performance arts: music, drama, dance, stagecr= aft, theatre tech and video. But, Mr. Speaker, MAD is so much more than tha= t.

ItR= 17;s crazy to look back at a school program that I did nearly 24 years ago and see it = as a turning point, but that is exactly what it was for me and what it has been,= and will continue to be, for others. I think I was in the 1994 intake when MAD = was still run out of the Yukon Arts Centre. Ross Peterson, Jeff Nordlund and Mary Sloan were the teachers on the ground. Looking back, I now know th= at they must have been trying to figure out what works. To see it 25 years in,= you know that the program is a finely tuned machine. You might ask yourself how= a program with zero course planning works, and I can tell you that every MAD student will tell you that it works like a hot damn.

The cu= rriculum was student-led. We decided what we wanted to learn, and the teachers facilitated. We did a lot in that semester, but our final project was massi= ve. We wrote, directed, costumed, scored, built sets, stage-crewed and peopled = the stage, for a full-length play: the = Epic of Troy: Love, Lust in a Wooden Horse.

We had= never worked so hard, missed so little school or been more involved in education = than during that semester. I know this still rings true for current students.

I aske= d Mary Sloan if she was aware of what alumni were doing now and, oh my, the list is colourful, beautiful and so incredibly long that I wouldn’t be able to capture each individual, but there are professional actors, choreographers, dancers, set and costume designers, technical directors, teachers, recording artists, thespians, doctors, scientists, videographers, documentary filmmak= ers — and we even have an archaeologist — and the list goes on.

I know= for myself that being part of the MAD family was the first time that I had foun= d my community — people with similar and complementary interests all worki= ng together toward common goals. I asked others what they thought and it’= ;s pretty incredible what they said. These are some examples: “Life changing.” “For the first time in my young life I found accepta= nce and belonging amid a group of peers. MAD helped me to find my voice and to = use it. I owe so much of my growth to that experience.” “MAD made me realize that being a creative person is alright. MAD opened up opportunities that I would never have explored otherwise. I also felt special and good ab= out being different and not part of the regular school system.” “I = saw so many people, myself included, blossom and embrace things about themselves that they didn’t know should be celebrated, hadn’t seen celebra= ted elsewhere. When you live in a smaller town, you don’t get a lot of exposure to more ‘metropolitan’ arts and culture. It opened our eyes to a whole other world.” “Thank goodness for MAD.” “MAD came to me at a time when I needed it most. I thought, at first, that it was just a way to indulge in something that I enjoyed…, but it turned into a valuable life lesson about work ethic and team work, all while validating my own abilities, therefore increasing my sense of self-worth. It was life changing.” “… I can hardly express what being pa= rt of MAD meant to me. To be a teacher who was able to work in a program that encouraged students to be authentic and to create work that was experienced= by the community outside of school, and, mostly, to see these young people blo= ssom and express their thoughts, ideas and talents, was the ultimate a teacher c= ould ask for. It was a ton of work, and it was a huge challenge, but it always g= ave me that feeling that the kids were really doing something that made a difference.”

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, all past, present and future MAD students thank those who knew that, given = the chance and space, creative kids would use all of their experiences and grow= to be thoughtful, hard-working and exceptional adults.


In recognition of 2018 Yukon Farmer of the Year

Hon. Mr. Pillai: As promised, Scott, Jackie, Matt and Rod are here with us.

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, each year, the Yukon government’s Agriculture branch recognizes a farm family, farmer or a farm advocate who has made an outstanding contribution = to Yukon.

Recipi= ents are nominated by their peers for their commitment to and passion for local farm= ing. Today I rise to pay tribute to the 2018 Yukon Farmers of the Year Scott and Jackie Dickson, who operate the Takhini River Ranch. Scott and Jackie have = been farming for over 10 years at their ranch on the Takhini River road north of Whitehorse. They raise laying hens, meat birds, hogs, sheep and cattle.

This f= arm couple has shown a talent for making things work and have been part of the momentu= m in supplying more local meats to Yukoners. In the words of their nominators, S= cott and Jackie show unbelievable love, care and attention to their animals throughout their lives and it shows in the products that they produce.

They a= re both professional and kind and represent what I believe all Yukoners and Yukon farmers should represent: resourceful, hard-working, with a good dollop of perseverance.

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, I just would like to add that when you talk about hard-working — and = I know that my colleagues in the opposition are also going to speak to this — Jackie has been a huge contributor to the public service of the Yukon government, and Scott has worked in a number of different areas and has contributed lots to self-governing First Nations and in the private sector. They both did that while building what they built on their property.

Amid a= ll of their work, Jackie still takes time to teach as well through their riding lessons at home or at the riding arena. Scott recently completed his butcher’s certification with honours, which is another step toward th= eir vision of an on-farm butcher shop.

Yukon&= #8217;s farmers and ranchers told us of the love, care and attention Scott and Jack= ie show to livestock and their mixed cow- and-calf operation. They have built a viable operation based on hard work, resourcefulness and dedication to their neighbours and to their community. The growing Yukon agricultural industry = is built on the passion, resourcefulness and care of farmers and ranchers such= as Scott and Jackie.

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, Jackie just shared some words at the agricultural banquet on Saturday night= . I think they were eloquent words that she shared with us where she compared g= old fever to what I will call “farm fever”. Certainly that is what = they have. I think we see a lot of Yukoners who have that — people who are absolutely dedicated and who just want to work more on their properties.

We tha= nk you for your dedication to the industry and to producing quality local food for Yukoners.


&= nbsp;

Mr. Cathers: I am pleased today to rise on behalf of the Yukon Party Official Opposition to pay tribute to the Yukon’s 2018 Farmer of the Year, Scott Dickson and Jackie McBride-Dickson of Takhini River Ranch. I am pleased to see them in = the gallery here today — welcome. Scott is no stranger to the outdoor lif= e. The grandson of Tom and Louise Dickson — he has been around outfitting and guiding his entire life. His father, Richard Dickson, owned and operated the Dickson hunting outfit before selling it to Scott’s brother in 19= 89. Richard raised his kids to help with the outfit, and this is where Scott ga= ined many of the skills required to run a successful ranch day to day. Scott and Jackie met in 1994. Together they built a business around trail riding, gui= ded horseback trips and horse camps. They share a love of horses and bred quart= er horses and paints, which would serve to be a foundation of their business.<= /span>

Today,= Takhini River Ranch has grown in its scope, and Scott and Jackie dedicate their tim= e to its success. Located by the Takhini River, the ranch is a producer of beef, pork, poultry and hay. In addition to their hayfields and livestock, they a= re adding a butcher shop to their operation, which I believe I heard them say = is almost complete.

They a= lso raise quarter horses, with Jackie being a Canadian Equestrian Federation certified coach and a western and English instructor with certification in equine studies. As the minister noted, Jackie also, for many years, contributed to= the public service as well as assisted other Yukoners in exploring and growing their love of horses through riding lessons.

I woul= d like to thank Scott and Jackie as well for hosting MLAs during the farm tour this p= ast September, where MLAs from all caucuses were able to see their operation first-hand and to look at their then-under-construction butcher shop. I hope that the insight into the industry that MLAs gained through the tour and hearing from Scott and Jackie will help everyone to see the importance of t= he Yukon’s agriculture and agri-food sector,= which is a major economic activity in my riding of Lake Laberge and is also a gro= wing part of the Yukon’s economy and a growing part of our food supply.

Congra= tulations to Scott and Jackie on being named this year’s Farmer of the Year. Th= is honour is well-deserved, and in her acceptance speech at the North of 60 Agriculture banquet on Saturday, Jackie delighted us all with her witty comparison of farming fever and gold fever as she read from an old list of supposed symptoms of gold fever.

Scott = and Jackie, your farming fever may be infectious. The result of your hard work = is not only a major contribution to the Yukon’s agriculture sector, but = an inspiration to other Yukon farmers.

Congra= tulations to you both and thank you for your contributions to the Yukon.


&= nbsp;

Ms. White: The Yukon NDP caucus would like to add our congratulations to Jackie and Scott Dickson on winning this year’s Farmer of the Year Award. Just like the couple themselves, the Takhini River Ranch is a warm, welcoming and exciting place. Until you go out there for a visit yourself, it is really hard to understand just how magical the place really is. After listening to Jackie’s acceptance speech, it is much easier to understand why. They were so gracious as they thanked every single person who had helped them to= get to where they are. They talked about the future that they dream of and, Mr.=  Speaker, we can’t wait to see what the future holds for the Takhini River Ranch and farming in the Yukon.

Congra= tulations and thank you for your enthusiasm and dedication to farming in the Yukon.



Speaker: Are= there any returns or documents for tabling?

Tabling Returns and Documents

Hon. Mr. Mostyn: I have for tabling the Yukon Public Service Labour Relations Board Annual Report 2017-2018, pursuant= to section 101 of the Public Service L= abour Relations Act. <= /span>

I also= have for tabling the Yukon Teachers Labour Relations Board Annual Report 2017-2018 pursuant to the section 103 of = the Education Labour Relations Act.

&= nbsp;

Speaker: Are= there any further returns or documents for tabling?

Are th= ere any reports of committees?

Are th= ere any petitions?

Are th= ere any bills to be introduced?

Are th= ere any notices of motions?

Notices of Motions

Mr. Cathers: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to give notice of the following motion:

THAT t= his House urges the Yukon government to oppose the federal Liberal government’s plan to allow Statistics Canada to access the personal financial informatio= n of 500,000 Canadians without their consent.

&= nbsp;

Speaker: Are= there any further notices of motions?

Is the= re a statement by a minister?

This t= hen brings us to Question Period.


Question re: Depart= ment of Education budget concerns and whistle-blower protection

Mr. Hassard: Mr. Speaker, at the end of last week, we saw the CBC report on a leaked e‑mail whe= re a concerned Government of Yukon employee indicated that the Liberals’ search for cuts in all government departments includes the Department of Education. The whistle-blower said that the government is telling departmen= ts to reduce spending. It says — and I quote: “The Department of Education is not immune to this, and Wood Street Centre and its programming= are also being scrutinized.”

In res= ponse, the Liberal Cabinet sent out a statement indicating that they were going to hunt down the whistle-blower. Under the Liberal government, we have seen whistle-blowers sought out, targeted or fired in the past, so we are concer= ned to see the political office indicate that they are trying to track down a whistle-blower again.

Will t= he Liberal government commit to end their witch-hunt and not punish any individuals for raising the concern that the Liberals have asked the Department of Educatio= n to find cuts?

Hon. Mr. Mostyn: I thank the member opposite for the question. It is very important that I communicate to Yukoners that we are not at all concerned about the release = of information in this government. We actually encourage all employees to bring forward issues or ideas for how we can improve services for Yukoners. In mo= st Yukon government workplaces, there is trust between employees and superviso= rs. We continuously receive feedback that informs changes to make our programs = and workplaces better. If an employee of a public entity believes a serious wrongdoing has been committed or is about to be committed they can seek adv= ice or make disclosure of wrongdoing under the Public Interest Disclosure of Wrongdoing Act, and be protected from reprisals = for doing so.

We had= a long talk about this in the former session, and I cannot make this case strongly enough. We foster communication in this government. We encourage people to communicate and we want to know what is happening out there. We were perple= xed and there was a lot of incredulity on Friday morning when we heard the news reports suggesting that we were going to close the Wood Street Centre Schoo= l. I’ll get back to this on supplementary questions.

Mr. Hassard: The Liberals have directed all departments, including Education, to find cuts. = They are also giving the Premier a raise, and the whistle-blower has concerns ov= er this. The Liberal political offices issued a statement on Friday indicating that they are seeking out the whistle-blower. We have seen what happens to whistle-blowers under the government, and it isn’t good. They have legitimately created a culture of fear from within. In the public service, people are worried about with whom they are seen going out to coffee. Will = the Liberal government commit to end this witch-hunt and commit to not punish a= ny individual for raising concerns about the Liberals asking the Department of Education to find cuts?

Hon. Mr. Mostyn: This has nothing to do with whistle-blowing. Whistle-blowing involves wrongdoing; there has been no wrongdoing here. We’re not at = all concerned about this. We were incredulous when we heard that there was some move afoot to do something with the MAD program. We were perplexed. It was never our intention, on this side of the House, to have any program cuts — certainly not at the Wood Street annex or anywhere else for that ma= tter. When we heard information about this, we were perplexed, and we were seekin= g: Where did this information came from? We had no idea, so we were verifying = the information.

I pers= onally — and I don’t think anybody on this side of the House — c= ares where the information came from. We just wanted to know what the information contained. We had no idea, so we were doing that, but in the end, we really= had no interest in finding out who or whatever. Again, it comes down to verifyi= ng the information, because we want to make sure that we’re giving the r= ight information out of this government. We want to make sure the information is correct. When we hear things in the media, we want to find out if somehow s= ome poor information has come out of the government that went before the public= . We wanted to make sure that wasn’t happening.

We hav= e learned that is not the case. The bottom line to the government side is that we are= not making any cuts to the Wood Street program, and that is good news for all Yukoners.

Mr. Hassard: So once again we see that when the facts don’t align with their narrativ= e, the Liberals claim it is fake news and try to rewrite history. It was a very simple question, Mr. Speaker, and it is unfortunate that we are not getting much of an answer. I will try it again. Will the Liberals commit to ending the witch-hunt for this whistle-blower? Will they commit to not puni= sh any individual for raising concerns about budget cuts at Education?<= /p>

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I hope Yukoners heard me earlier this morning on the public media talking abo= ut how misinformation causes anxiety unnecessarily and how contributing to that misinformation is, in fact, irresponsible. The “witch-hunt” is = the members of the opposition’s word; “whistle-blower” is the= ir word.

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, this was an e‑mail that came to parents and alumni encouraging them t= o do a survey. It inappropriately, or perhaps mistakenly, unfortunately contained inaccurate information about it being linked to some potential reduction in budgets. That is not, in fact, the case. It is simply not happening and unfortunately that e‑mail was of concern.

The co= mments with respect to whatever was said on Friday, I can assure the members of the public that what the note said was that we were looking to see where the e&= #8209;mail came from so that we could make sure that person — as well as all mem= bers of the staff, all members of the public and the school communities — = had accurate information about the Wood Street programs.

Question re: Budget estimates and spending

Mr. Cathers: In his first budget speech, the Premier claimed that his budget forecast would= be more accurate than previous budgets. Last week, the Public Accounts proved = that this was another one of his empty promises. His budget for 2017‑18 projected spending $516 million on personnel; however, government spen= t a whopping $16.6 million less on personnel than he said it would. We are glad the Liberal government didn’t spend as much of the taxpayersR= 17; money as the Premier said in his budget speech, but it is our job to questi= on his budgeting choices, including why he would overbudget this item by $16.6=  million.

Since = it was one of the most notable changes in the actual spending, can the Premier tell us= why he didn’t even mention it in his press release last week? Was he hopi= ng Yukoners wouldn’t notice?

Hon. Mr. Silver: It gives me great pleasure to get up and speak about the Public Accounts here in the Legislative Assembly. As anticipated during the spring 2017 budget speech, the government’s non-consolidated Public Accounts= for the 2017‑18 year showed a surplus on both a consolidated and non-consolidated basis. The non-consolidated surplus for the year was $18.7=  million, while the consolidated surplus was $56 million. The actual surplus exceeded the amount budgeted in both cases.

At the= end of the fiscal year, the non-consolidated net financial assets were $37 mi= llion, and consolidated net financial assets were $248 million. Again, we provided a briefing to the opposition on the Public Accounts, which is an unprecedented event — in my time in politics, anyway. Again, we have = been getting these numbers out and always have a great opportunity to speak to t= he fact that, through efficiencies, we have been able to actually save money. = The biggest thing that people should be noticing on the Public Accounts is that through a whole-of-government approach of trying to find better ways to spe= nd Yukoners’ money, we actually had done better by the Public Accounts t= han we had budgeted.

Mr. Cathers: When the Liberals took office, they tried to claim the finances of the territory weren’t as good as they actually were. Now the Public Accounts prove = the Liberals’ spin on revenues and expenses by the Yukon government is absolutely wrong. For eight of the past 10 years, revenues exceeded expenses — they were higher than expenses. When this Premier took office, budg= et projections for future years changed dramatically, with a lot more red ink = in his projections. We questioned whether he was deliberately overestimating c= osts for future years to inflate deficits for political reasons. He vowed that h= is budget forecasts were more accurate than previous ones but government spent $16.6 million less on personnel than the Premier said it would, which = is probably a new record.

Will h= e admit now that his budgets were less accurate than he claimed and tell us how much the lapse in personnel is expected to be this fiscal year?

Hon. Mr. Silver: We have been speaking in the Legislative Assembly in the 20 or= so hours of general debate about how forecasts come in and then the Public Accounts has an opportunity to tell from a federal perspective and a territorial perspective how much money was actually spent. We’re prou= d of the fact that, compared to the forecasts, this government has done a better= job with Yukon’s expenditures. We’re very proud of the supplementary budgets that are the lowest in modern history in the Yukon, making sure certainty goes out to the private sector as they plan their five years R= 12; and also other governments. We have done a good job of making sure those capital assets are up front and making sure that our supplementary budgets = are exactly that, just supplementary.

The non-consolidated surplus of $18.7 million is about $12 million hi= gher than the budgeted surplus of $6.5 million, and the change in that surp= lus results primarily from higher than estimated revenues of $1.1 million = and lower than anticipated expenses of $10.2 million and a variance of less than one percent. These are the stats that, of course, the members opposite glaze over as they take a look at the consolidated and non-consolidated expenditures.

During= 2017‑18, the non-consolidated net financial assets decreased. We are very proud of t= hose decreases and I will continue on my third response to get into some more details of the budget.

Mr. Cathers: Unfortunately for the Premier, the Liberals’ spin on government revenues and expens= es has been disproven by the Public Accounts. Anyone can go to page 4 of the Public Accounts and see the truth. The Public Accounts are signed off by the Auditor General and they show this inconvenient truth. For eight of the pas= t 10 years, revenues were higher than expenses. The facts as shown in the Public Accounts simply do not line up with the Premier’s spin. We’re l= eft wondering the Premier actually read the Public Accounts before he tabled th= em.

Will t= he Premier now apologize to Yukoners for the Liberals’ spin and admit that their talking points are proven wrong by the Public Accounts, or is he going to continue spinning his wheels on this issue?

Hon. Mr. Silver: What we’re hearing here is the world against the Yukon P= arty. The Yukon Financial Advisory Pa= nel was not my financial advisory panel; it was an independent financial adviso= ry panel. If the member opposite thinks that his accounting is better than professionals on that particular — as he speaks off-mic and doesnR= 17;t like the truth. I guess he only likes his convenient truth that he likes to perpetuate here in the Legislative Assembly.

Again,= the Financial Advisory Panel identified the revenues and expenditures narrative= . We have seen the member opposite use his convenient truth of trying to compare numbers to numbers that were oranges to apples in this Legislative Assembly= . I think Yukoners are happy with the Office of the Auditor General’s rep= ort.

They a= re happy that we are finding efficiencies here in the Yukon and happy that the Public Accounts have been audited by the Auditor General of Canada and have receiv= ed an unmodified accounting opinion. We will let the good work of the Departme= nt of Finance and a whole-of-government approach when it comes to spending taxpayers’ money speak for itself.

Question re: Many Rivers Counselling and Support Services compliance with Societies Act

Ms. Hanson: As you may be aware, the workers at Many Rivers have been on strike since Frid= ay. Many Rivers provides counselling and support services across the Yukon thro= ugh its offices in Whitehorse, Watson Lake, Haines Junction and Dawson City.

The or= ganization is separate from government, but it receives the vast majority of its budget from the Yukon government — over $2 million this year alone. However, the government’s corporate registry indicates that Many Rive= rs is currently in default, meaning that they have not met their obligations u= nder the Societies Act.

Is the= minister aware that an organization that receives over $2 million in government funding is not complying with the S= ocieties Act?

Hon. Mr. Streicker: I am sure the Minister of Health and Social Services wi= ll get up and talk about the department’s relationship with health and social services.

If the= question from the Leader of the Third Party is if I was aware that this group was in default of the Societies Act, my answer is no. I was not aware. I don’t get a daily report about which societies are in default or not. I am sure that she is driving to other poi= nts. I am sure that we will be able to give those responses in a second. =

Ms. Hanson: When an organization receives millions in government funding, there needs t= o be some accountability and transparency. Many Rivers’ 2018 AGM was cance= lled at the last minute this June. We have been told by people who attended the = 2017 AGM that no financial statements were presented at that time. Membership fo= rms to join the society have been removed from the website and individuals have seen the request to join Many Rivers society ignored. We have even heard rumours that a board meeting recently took place in Vancouver for a Yukon-based, non-profit organization.

This r= aises many questions, especially given that Yukon government provides over $2 mil= lion a year to Many Rivers, which is nearly their entire annual budget. <= /p>

Will t= he minister table the funding agreement that it has with Many Rivers in this Legislative Assembly?

Hon. Ms. Frost: With respect to the specifics of the funding agreement with Ma= ny Rivers, at this moment, I am not able to speak to the specifics of the agreement. What I can say is that the department, as we advance with the relationship with Many Rivers — to ensure that we provide the services that Many Rivers generally provides to Yukon citizens with respect to counselling services and supports — are followed through on, knowing right now that Many Rivers is in a potential strike situation or they are i= n a strike situation. We are ensuring that we provide the necessary supports to= all Yukon citizens. I am sure that we will have further discussions with Many Rivers — comprehensive discussions. That will then form a broader comprehensive review as well as the services that are delivered to Yukoners= .

Ms. Hanson: I am not talking about a strike.

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, sports teams and other non-profits are required to comply with the Societies Act to get a few thousand dollars in government funding. It is concerning when an organization funded= to the tune of over $2 million by government isn’t in compliance wi= th the same act, but like any other society receiving money from government, t= here should be an expectation of accountability and transparency.

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, this government is providing the vast majority of Many Rivers’ fundin= g, yet the organization is not complying with the Societies Act. Will the minister tell Yukoners if the government has taken steps to ensure that Many Rivers complies with the Societies Act?

Hon. Mr. Streicker: <= span lang=3DEN-CA>Mr. Speaker, we want all of our societies to be compliant. It’s not about one or the other.

I̵= 7;m sorry, Mr. Speaker, but when members opposite raise some concerns — may= be even allegations — as I stood and answered my first question — I’m not aware of what those concerns are, so I would need the time to= ask the department to speak with the registrar, who has the duty and responsibi= lity to make sure that these things are being kept up. While I respect that those concerns are there, I haven’t known the registrar to not do her work diligently in the past. I will take the time to go back and make sure.

While = I’m up, I think that our societies do a tremendous service to the territory, an= d I think the work that they do is great. I’m happy that we support many societies across the territory in support of that work. We always want to m= ake sure that the money is going to groups that are compliant and are working effectively for Yukoners.

Question re: Energy supply and demand

Ms. Hanson: For the second year in a row, Yukon Energy Corporation will need to rent diesel generators. The estimated cost is over $1.5 million. Last winter, Yukon Energy Corporation leased four diesel units for emergency backup. This year= it is six units — this on top of a new LNG unit that has been installed = to increase LNG energy production. When first introduced by Yukon Energy Corporation, LNG generators were presented as an emergency backup for the foreseeable future. What happened?

Yukone= rs have had to rely on fossil fuels every month for the last year, including every = day of the last week. Our reliance on fossil fuels is going up despite the government talking points on climate change. Mr. Speaker, where exactly does this increase in fossil fuels fit into this government’s climate change plans?

Hon. Mr. Pillai: Mr. Speaker, I will speak to the responsibility in the portfolio, at least over the last two years that I have been in the role, n= ot previous to that — what was the catalyst for the LNG infrastructure. I think that we are really parsing words. When we talk about putting IPP legislation in place over this calendar year — making sure that we wo= rk with a number of different groups to have renewable energy — there is= sincerity. The teams are working on it. Even today with our YDC team, they are continu= ing to work on that.

When you’re dealing with immense water levels fluctuating in both the Mayo area and in Aishihik and you start to take into consideration where snow lo= ads are in both of those areas and you have less of a backup, then you have to = move to it. I don’t think anybody in the Legislative Assembly is happy abo= ut that fact. We have looked at — as has been publicly stated — the increase in use of thermal and going from that 98 percent down to around 96 percent now. The conversation continues to look at how we make sure we have short-term and long-term renewables and maybe also some microhydro, which Yukon Energy Corporation continues to look at — but we are still going to make sure that Yukoners are safe and warm.

That w= hy, with an N-1 scenario, you make sure that you have backup. That is what those sea cans are for. I will wait for the next two questions.

Ms. Hanson: The corporation has announced the addition of a third permanent LNG generator t= his fall in addition to the two it installed in Whitehorse in 2015. They are ne= eded due to low water levels in Aishihik Lake. The corporation would have prefer= red to have leased LNG generators, but it was unable to. After spending over $4= 8 million for an LNG plant that was to be used for emergency backup, we now have a th= ird LNG generator and six rented backup diesel generators, and the amount of fo= ssil fuel Yukon Energy is burning to generate power has more than quadrupled in = the last three years — all to keep the lights on. When will this governme= nt invest as much money in new renewable energy as it is investing in fossil f= uel infrastructure?

Hon. Mr. Pillai: I think that most of what the Leader of the Third Party reviewed is — i= t is all accurate information in the sense of where we are going.

Mr.&nb= sp;Speaker, it is not just like flipping a light switch — excuse the pun — = to turn from having infrastructure in place that is renewable or not renewable. What we have seen over the history of, I believe, renewable energy producti= on in the Yukon is that — when you look at hydro, which takes a long tim= e, we saw an exercise that was performed over the last number of years. There = was a partnership that was looked for — the previous government searched = for a partnership. There were no willing partners at that time, although there = were some options for potential hydro. There are some smaller projects that Yukon Energy Corporation is going to continue to look at. That is going to be sor= t of a mid-term plan on how you can come up with hydro production.

When i= t comes to the last question: When do we look at having an investment in renewable ene= rgy to the same extent as, I guess, the previous government did on LNG? Well, t= he biggest question is — when you have the battery technology that can w= ork within our grid system. I think we would all be behind that, but that is a = key indicator. We are looking for the innovation there, and when we have it, we= can make those investments.

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;We know that First Nation governments, municipalities and Yukon citizens are a= ll working hard to do their part to reduce greenhouse gases. They are investin= g in solar power, biomass, wind power, retrofits to older buildings and planning= and building SuperGreen buildings. Just like its predecessor, this government throws in a few dollars and shows up at the ribbon-cutting ceremony, but they are not leading the way when it comes to = new renewable energy. Instead, we are seeing the increased dependence on diesel generators and more money going into fossil fuel infrastructure.

How ca= n this government pretend to be a climate leader when they have overseen such an increase in fossil fuel consumption?

Hon. Mr. Pillai: The tone of the question — although I agree and support the passion that = is in place — is spun in a very big political web. If you go through eit= her from north to south on this one and you talk about the First Nation governm= ents or the partnerships that are happening in communities — whether it is Watson Lake, Teslin, Na Cho Nyäk Dun, Champagne and Aishihik or any of those communities — they are doing those projects in partnership with= the Yukon government, Yukon Energy Corporation.

I want= to thank Dr. Michael Ross, who as our energy chair, helps to provide expertise. Everybody who is working on these projects in the Yukon is working on them in tandem. This i= s a team effort on these particular projects. It is not as though the entities = that were listed do it in isolation. I think it is a disservice by the Leader of= the Third Party to our Energy branch. I want to thank Shane Andre and their team for the good work and Shirley Abercrombie. I know there is a comment off-mi= c, but these are the people who get up, are passionate about it and are doing = this hard work every day. So let’s not take away from how they are helping= our communities.

So yes= , the Yukon government is working hard on this, and I think that it is a shot in = the dark — but there won’t be a shot in the dark because we have th= ose backup sea cans that are here for us this winter.

Question re: School capacity

Mr. Kent: There has been much discussion in this House about the lack of a plan by the Mini= ster of Education to address the overcrowding pressures at a number of Yukon schools. We aren’t certain why she is not showing any urgency toward these issues, but we do know that she doesn’t think this is a terrible problem to have. For the families who are having their children wait-listed= , it is a terrible problem.

With t= he school currently at 96‑percent capacity, what is the minister doing to addre= ss the overcrowding at Holy Family Elementary School?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I am afraid that I will sound a bit like a broken record, but = I will need to take issue with the preamble to that question as simply not being t= rue.

With r= espect to Whitehorse elementary schools, which are what we are talking about here, I = can indicate that there are 11 elementary schools in Whitehorse. There has been= no long-term planning to address enrolment pressures for almost the past 20 ye= ars. We are now, Mr. Speaker, doing that work because it is necessary. To be clear, Whitehorse elementary schools are at 79- percent capacity overall, which, of course, does not mean that some schools are not above that 79R= 09;percent capacity, but as of the end of September 2018, there are 700 available class spaces in Whitehorse elementary schools.

Enrolm= ent numbers fluctuate widely over time as neighbourhoods and demographics chang= e. Our job is to adapt in a way that makes sense for all of our schools in Whitehorse.

Mr. Kent: Of course, we all know that Whistle Bend is growing and the pressures that it = is putting on Holy Family School and Jack Hulland Elementary School are only g= oing to increase. We have heard from families at the Holy Family School who are worried about what next year is going to mean in terms of capacity at the school. As I mentioned, Holy Family School is at 96‑percent capacity = and Jack Hulland Elementary School is currently at 83‑percent capacity.

Will i= t mean that students will be wait-listed? Will it mean that families will have to = send their children to one of the minister’s empty seats on the other side= of the city? It is not clear, but what is clear is that the lack of leadership, urgency and plan from this Minister of Education is only making the problem worse.

Can th= e minister tell us what she is going to do before the beginning of the next school yea= r to ensure the capacity issues at Holy Family School and Jack Hulland Elementary School do not get worse?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: The only person who doesn’t think we have a plan is the = former Minister of Education, and I am going to guess that is because they didn’t have a plan. I can tell you that this department actually does have a plan, and they are working very diligently with respect to working w= ith every school community to make sure — and by school community, I mean school councils, administrators of schools and school families — that= the planning that hasn’t been done for over 20 years to look at the future pressures of enrolment in Whitehorse schools is, in fact, being done.

We are= working diligently to have short-term, mid-term and long-term solutions with respec= t to the schools that are reaching capacity. At this point, the plan must make s= ense for all Yukon communities. I guess it is important to remind folks that the= re are 700 empty spaces — not in every neighbourhood — overall in = the elementary schools here in Whitehorse. I suggest to you that most Yukoners definitely would think that those school spaces are a significant number as= we work with each and every family to make sure that their wishes can be best respected, if possible, and if not, that their students are placed in a sch= ool that suits them going forward as we work with each student to focus on their education.

Mr. Kent:Q= 95;From that response, I take it that it does mean that families may have to send t= heir children to a school on the other side of the city.

Earlie= r this Sitting, the Minister of Education said — and I quote: “Accurac= y is important to me.” Yet we have seen that isn’t necessarily the c= ase as she claimed to have only become aware of overcrowding issues causing children to be home-schooled on October 11 of this year.

As has= been discussed, these issues have been raised with her numerous times, dating ba= ck to last December. Yukoners need her to show some more urgency on this file.= As we have mentioned, pointing to a 10-year capital plan that is only in development is not going to help the children who are wait-listed today.

Is the= minister able to tell us how much money will be invested this school year to expand capacity in our schools?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I think it is critical to address this issue with respect to a long-term plan that will deal with schools and work with school communities= in the short term, the medium term and the long term, because there is no one = set of solutions to this problem that has been ignored for a ridiculously long period of time.

At any= point in time, we are aware of what the enrolment pressures will be five years ahead because we look closely at the number of potential students — children who are born here in the territory each year. Of course, what we cannot pre= dict is the growth of the economy, the growth of neighbourhoods and the growth of individuals moving with their children here to the territory.

That s= aid, Whitehorse elementary schools are at 79‑percent capacity. There are 7= 00 empty spots as of September. I think Yukoners want us to make sure that we = are doing the analysis necessary for future growth in our enrolment numbers to = make sure that they are adapting and planning for a way that makes sense for all= of our Yukon schools, noting that enrolment numbers fluctuate and neighbourhoo= ds change. It is not an exact science, but it is certainly something we are working on every day with Yukon families and with our school communities. <= /span>


Speaker: The= time for Question Period has now elapsed.

We wil= l now proceed to Orders of the Day.

Orders of the Day

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the Ho= use resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker: It = has been moved by the Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to


Speaker leaves the Chair <= /p>

Committee of the Whole

Chair (Mr. Hutton): Committee of the Whole will come to order.

Do mem= bers wish to take a brief recess?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: Commi= ttee of the Whole will recess for 15 minutes.

&= nbsp;


&= nbsp;

Chair: Order, please. Committee of the Whole will now come to order.

Bill No. 23: Lobbyists Registration= Act

Chair: The m= atter before the Committee is Bill No. 23, entitled Lobbyists Registration Act.

Is the= re any general debate?


Hon. Mr. Silver: I am pleased to speak today to Committee of the Whole on Bill No. 23 — what we like to call the “Michael Jordan act̶= 1; — the Lobbyists Registration = Act. I would like to welcome the public servants here from the department.

I just= want to review a little bit. On November 1, I made a second reading speech about th= e Lobbyists Registration Act, which = is the legislative framework that will be supporting the Yukon lobbyist registry. = As a quick summary, we are aiming to improve transparency regarding who has acce= ss to decision-makers by requiring lobbyists to identify themselves. I would l= ike to clarify this point for the Leader of the Third Party. Based upon her comments during second reading of this bill, there was a concern as to whet= her the proposed act would include a proactive requirement to register. We did speak off-mic about this, but just for Hansard’s sake and for the transparency here in the Legislative Assembly, I can commit that the bill is explicit on this point. Registration will be mandatory for those who meet t= he criteria set out in the act.

Our ai= m is that Yukoners are informed on who is communicating with government and on what topics. Lobbying is a legitimate part of the policy decision-making process, and we are not looking to prevent access to government officials. The act a= nd the lobbyist registry it establishes will only pertain to lobbying activiti= es directed toward Government of Yukon. This means that lobbying directed towa= rd First Nation governments, municipalities or local advisory councils will be outside of the scope of the new lobbyist registry designed by the Governmen= t of Yukon.

On a r= elated note, the Government of Yukon’s relationship with other governments w= ill not be included within the scope of who needs to register. This means that employees, officials or other governments — including Yukon transboun= dary First Nations, local advisory councils and municipalities — will be excluded from needing to register when they are acting in their official capacity. Employees of the Council of Yukon First Nations — CYFN R= 12; and also the Association of Yukon Communities — AYC — are exclu= ded from needing to register in recognition of their roles in providing support= to either First Nation governments, local governments or local advisory counci= ls.

For th= e purpose of this new act, elected and unelected government officials will be conside= red public office-holders, which include employees of the Government of Yukon, departm= ents and corporations, as well as members of the Legislative Assembly and their political staff.

Yukon&= #8217;s Lobbyists Registration Act will co= ver two types of lobbyists, as we reviewed in the second reading. Consultant lobbyists are self-employed or work for firms that lobby on behalf of their clients. The second type is in-house lobbyists who are lobbying on behalf of their businesses, organizations or employers.

Consul= tant lobbyists have to register regardless of what amount of lobbying they do, but the in-house lobbyists only have to register when they lobby for 20 hours or mo= re in a year or in the collective hours of lobbying done by the organization or business totalling 20 hours or more in a year.

During= public engagement, we received feedback to consider other criteria in terms of who needs to register as a lobbyist. Aside from focusing only on paid positions, there was concern that these positions may still wield a high degree of influence. In response to public feedback, we included positions that overs= ee or control operations of their business or organization as needing to regis= ter if they reach the lobbying threshold. These specific positions may not be p= aid — such as a board of directors, for example. We recognize that only focusing on paid lobbying creates a significant loophole for registration. Instead, we focused on positions that may have a significant influence on policy.

The bi= ll proposes two types of lobbyists so that different reporting requirements ca= n be established. We recognize that the capacity of a lobbying firm may be diffe= rent from the capacity of a local NGO — non-government organization. Consultant lobbyists will have a maximum of 15 days to register when they s= tart lobbying for a client. The reporting period for consultant lobbyists will follow the duration of their lobbying contract. They will submit a return at the start of their contract, provide an update every six months and submit a final return when the contract ends. The reporting period of in-house lobby= ists follows a calendar year. They will submit a return when they reach 20 hours= of lobbying for the year, followed by a return or update at the end of the calendar year. In-house lobbyists will have up to 60 days to submit their f= irst return when they reach the threshold in a year.

I want= to talk a bit about penalties, Mr. Chair. If an individual is convicted of not complying with the requirements in the act, they may be subject to a maximu= m fine of $25,000 for a first offence and a maximum of $100,000 for subsequent offences. These fines are consistent with other Canadian jurisdictions. A j= udge is not required to levy the maximum amount of the fine. The purpose of these fines is to deter large corporations that are well funded from intentionally not complying with lobbying legislation. The act also empowers the commissi= oner to ban an individual from lobbying for up to two years if they are convicte= d of non-compliance with the act.

We are= expanding the role of the Conflict of Interest Commissioner to oversee the lobbyist registry. We are committed to creating a lobbyist registry that promotes transparency, which is why we selected an independent officer of the Legislative Assembly to be that oversight body. In addition to overseeing t= he lobbyist registry, the act will give the commissioner the ability to educate the public and lobbyists, as well, regarding the rules associated with lobb= ying in the Yukon.

Mr.&nb= sp;Chair, we were mindful, as we drafted this act, of our size and of our resources. = We wanted to create a law that would promote transparency while also staying within our means. This is new for Yukon. It has never been done here before= . We followed the lessons of other smaller jurisdictions in Canada and we incorporated public feedback to create an approach that could work for the Yukon.

With t= hat being said, Mr. Chair, I will have a seat and open up the floor to the membe= rs of the opposition for questions on this bill.

Mr. Hassard: I appreciate the opportunity to ask some questions here in Committee of the W= hole on Bill No. 23, and I would also like to thank the officials for being here today to help the Premier in his endeavours.

My fir= st question would be: Would someone who is on contract with the Government of Yukon have to register their interactions under this new legislation?

Hon. Mr. Silver: I think that a lot of the conversation today is going to be ar= ound the difference between a lobbyist and an advocate and these types of things. It’s a great opportunity to clarify. Again, we, the government, are n= ot a client of the act. If we are not a client of the act, the simple answer to = the question is no.

Again,= we are looking to identify what a lobbyist is to begin with — consistent with the rest of Canada as far as that definition goes. Lobbying is when a perso= n or an organization tries to influence the outcome of a government decision, and lobbyists do this by communicating with public officials or politicians = 212; for example, by having meetings or by sending e‑mails.

Specif= ically to the member’s question in that particular example, the answer would be= no.

Mr. Hassard: During the Spring Sitting, it was revealed that the Liberal government had directly awarded six contracts in 2017 valued at about $160,000 to a lobbying firm, = BlueSky Strategies. Since then, a number of contracts= were directly awarded to the same firm in 2018. We never got a real clear answer from the government as to who from the Premier’s office met with this southern lobbying firm to establish these contracts.

I̵= 7;m curious, Mr. Chair: Would this information be captured and made public under this new legislation?

Hon. Mr. Silver: I guess, in a nutshell, as previous governments have done and as we do as wel= l, if we are going to be working in Ottawa then there are times where there is going to be an opportunity for us to hire lobbyists for the federal governm= ent. Under those confines, that’s lobbying for the federal government. Tho= se activities would not be part of this.

Now ag= ain, so as not to splice hairs, if an organization wants to influence decisions by this government, then, of course, that particular lobbyist would have to register — if their interactions with the government are to influence decisions being made here in the Yukon.

Mr. Hassard: Would the legislation as worded now allow a government to hire a lobbyist on cont= ract and then the lobbyist would be exempt from registering under the act? IR= 17;m presuming that’s what the Premier is saying, but just for clarificati= on, Mr. Chair.

Hon. Mr. Silver: I assumed from my very specific answer that if we’re wor= king with an organization in Ottawa to help us with the federal government, well, there might be some kind of requirement on the federal government’s s= ide for that particular organization to register. Again, unless that organizati= on was coming up here to lobby on behalf of a company or an organization ̵= 2; those types of things — and having meetings with me, the Leader of the Official Opposition or the Leader of the Third Party — that would be a different scenario.

Here i= s an example: If a consultant sends one e‑mail to a deputy minister on beh= alf of a client to encourage several requirements of a permitting process to be changed, in that case, that particular person is a consultant lobbyist and would need to register, regardless of the time spent lobbying. Another exam= ple would be a sole proprietor who meets with a minister at a barbecue, and he = or she is talking about their business and mentions that they are interested in more contracts with the government for services — that particular person’s business offers — then, yes, that sole proprietor is an in-house lobbyist, but only needs to register if her lobbying reaches 20 ho= urs or more in that calendar year. Again, these are specific examples here to answer maybe the more general question from the member opposite as far as a particular group who has, in the past, helped this party in Ottawa.<= /p>

Mr. Hassard: I’m curious: Does the Premier feel that it is a loophole that a lobbying firm w= ould not have to register if they have a contract with the government?

Hon. Mr. Silver: That is not a loophole. We’re not responsible for federal legislation.

Mr. Hassard:&= #8195;Okay. I guess my last question would be, then: Would the Premier consider lobbying work that is being done for free — does it not have to be included in= the registry?

Hon. Mr. Silver: I did identify this in my opening comments. Maybe the member opposite was get= ting ready for the grilling questions. Paid versus unpaid lobbying — I’ll read it again — well, without reading it directly, it̵= 7;s not about whether you’re paid or not, it’s the activity. If it walks like a duck and if it talks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. It’s not about whether or not you’re paid, it’s more about what activities are being undertaken.

Ms. Hanson: The Premier just made reference in his opening remarks this afternoon to the fa= ct that this act does not apply to municipal governments.

My que= stion is: Does this act provide an opportunity for an opt-in for municipal governments and local governments and/or does the Municipal Act provide for the ability of municipal and/or local governments to ad= opt this legislation as if it was its own?

Hon. Mr. Silver: Our bill does not require lobbyists to disclose when they are lobbying for a municipal government — not the question from the member opposite — but just under the guise of municipalities. Lobbying registration among provinces does not typically include provisions that mak= e it applicable to municipalities, with the exception of Quebec. It is the “only” that has that part to it.

When d= eveloping our legislation, we were very mindful that we know very little about lobbyi= ng in the Yukon because no one is tracking that right now, so we didn’t = know if the rules that we have created would be appropriate if applied to local governments in the Yukon other than the territorial government. For this re= ason, we considered the approaches taken in other similar-sized smaller provinces= in Canada and followed their model in this regard.

Our le= gislation does not prevent municipalities in Yukon from developing their own rules for lobbying, but under that pretext, we weren’t looking toward the lens = of necessarily applying it for a municipality or for First Nation governments. That being said, there is nothing stopping municipalities or First Nation governments from adopting this particular legislation as they are taking a = look moving forward themselves in that sense of transparency when it comes to wh= o is talking to the decision-makers in municipal governments and First Nation governments.

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;I appreciate that clarification and I would hope that other levels of governm= ent would look to this, again, as another example of maturing governance and the opportunity to provide that greater accountability and transparency.=

One of= the other questions I have is: I don’t see anywhere in this legislation where t= here is any requirement for public office-holders to maintain any record or regi= stry of meetings with lobbyists. There is an onus on the lobbyists to register, = but not even a reference in terms of best practices with respect to public office-holders to keep a note to verify or to cross-reference the accuracy — there is sort of a trust piece here that we are assuming lobbyists = will register.

Is the= re anywhere in the legislation where we can see any reference to the fact that= it is encouraged by designated public office-holders to maintain their own rec= ords of meetings with lobbyists?

Hon. Mr. Silver: When it comes to public office-holders reporting and the requirements therein, t= he onus is on the lobbyist to disclose their activities. That’s the basi= s of our legislation. The federal government does require public office-holders = to file returns when they have met with lobbyists, but this is a much larger jurisdiction. We’re following a model from smaller jurisdictions and smaller provinces. For this particular part, we’re following the model that we have seen in provinces like New Brunswick, for example. We wanted to find an approach that would work for Yukon and that wouldn’t demand additional resources to implement getting this out the door.

This i= s new, and there is going to be some time from a hopeful assent here in the Legislative Assembly to actually implementing the legislation. We’re planning on holding a public education campaign to coincide with the launch of the new registry to ensure that the public and the potential lobbyists understand t= hese new requirements. The Leader of the Third Party made reference to this as w= ell.

ItR= 17;s going to take some time to figure out from the NGO side of things — more so than the paid lobbyists — as far as what this looks like. Again, we b= aked right into this legislation a public education campaign so that people are = well aware of the requirements and the comparisons between this legislation and legislation from other jurisdictions, but specifically when it comes to pub= lic office-holders, I do concur that, on a federal basis, the federal government does have that requirement, but being a smaller jurisdiction and with this being new to the north, we wanted to follow models that we see in other sma= ller jurisdictions.

Ms. Hanson: I would argue that just because we are smaller, it makes it a lot easier — and demonstrating best practices for Cabinet ministers, other public office-hol= ders and designated public office-holders — to simply keep a record. Surel= y to goodness — people keep a running calendar of meetings that are held a= nd with whom they are held. It’s simply asking, as we talked about with = the ATIPP legislation the other day, for the retention of public records for pu= blic purposes.

I̵= 7;m not asking for an elaborate system. I’m simply saying: Would this minister not recommend to his colleagues and to designated office-holders that it wo= uld be a good practice to keep a record of meetings held with just about anybod= y, but particularly those who are engaged in lobbying?

Hon. Mr. Silver: This might be where we are going to agree to disagree. When yo= u take a look at the limited resources and getting this thing off the ground, our perspective is that concept of smaller jurisdictions and taking a look at w= hat they have done. These are more modern legislative pieces as well.

I beli= eve Nova Scotia and New Brunswick have more modern legislation — so again, wor= king from their perspective and baking into that a review — but this does = put an onus as well on those public office-holders to then figure the difference between advocacy and lobbying and having to determine that. All meetings aren’t necessarily lobbying, Mr. Chair.

With t= he definition of a “lobbyist” being a person or organization that = is trying to influence the outcomes of a government decision, lobbyists are do= ing this by communicating with government officials. That is where we are focus= ing our attention. Again, there will be a public component to this where we wil= l be seeking an education campaign and looking to see if this is something of concern to those office-holders, and we will go from there.

On tha= t, as well, from the federal government’s perspective — when the fede= ral government legislation came out, it did take some time afterward for that reporting requirement. So after having the lobbyist registration, I believe= it was several years for that to become part of it as well. In our first year,= we are going to keep it quite straightforward and simple in those classificati= ons that we decided upon, trying our best to be more open and accountable, but = at the same time have a conscientious approach when it comes to our limited resources here in the Yukon as well.

Ms. Hanson: Well, the first federal legislation came into effect in 1989, and I think it took almost 20 years before we started getting the onus on the designated office-holders to keep a record. My question would be: Why wouldn’t we just simply say, “Good lesson”. We want to be able to have some= , if nothing else, plausible deniability. Somebody says, “I met with that minister and I was lobbying”, and they say, “No, I didn’t.” Well, who do you believe? I want my ministers, my seni= or public servants and others who are going to be lobbied to have a clear reco= rd of who they did meet with on lobbying activities and not just rely upon = 212; hopefully rely upon, because I will come to this in a second — the lobbyist to have registered. How long of a period of time are we anticipati= ng before we anticipate having a fully functioning lobbying legislation in this territory?

Hon. Mr. Silver: In a nutshell, my response to the member opposite is that the intention is to improve transparency without necessarily making the process overly burdenso= me. Again, if we are taking lessons from a federal government, it is a federal government with much more resources than what we have here. We might have to agree to disagree, from the first initial stages of getting this out of the door, as far as whether or not what the Leader of the Third Party — whether it actually helps with transparency or actually just makes the proc= ess a little bit more burdensome. In the end, we are putting something out the = door that hasn’t happened before and which deals with all meetings and all communications being considered lobbying. Let me say that another way; we a= re starting with: Who are you communicating with? What is the purpose of your communication? Who are you? If you have not represented a client, how many hours have you spent lobbying?

Having= these questions right off the bat and it being a new system is where we are start= ing from, and we believe that is a fundamental place to start. It’s a lot; it’s new; it’s new to Yukoners. It might not be new to the paid lobbyists who have worked in other jurisdictions, but it is to our non-government organizations and others.

There = is going to be a review within five years. We are not putting the reporting requirem= ent onus on the public office-holders. It has been reported that the member opposite believes that we should. We will go out to the public as well in t= his educational campaign and we will see if there are more requests for that. <= /span>

Again,= from our perspective right now, we want to improve our transparency without making t= he process overly burdensome.

Ms. Hanson: A simple question: Does the minister opposite currently keep a record of all meetings and the subject matter of those meetings?

Hon. Mr. Silver: No, I don’t, Mr. Chair. From time to time, dependin= g upon who we are meeting with, we have agendas. Depending on whether the meeting = is advocacy or if that meeting is lobbying — those are two different thi= ngs — but this does ask the question of how important it is to get information out there as far as who is trying to influence the decisions th= at are being made. Currently, I do not keep track of every meeting that I have= . We have had the previous government talk about getting rutabagas in the grocery store and whether or not that was considered a meeting or not. I am not the= re, but what we are doing is we are putting forth an act that is going to put t= he onus on those who are lobbying in these meetings to make sure that lobbying activity is being recorded.

Ms. Hanson: Will the public education campaign that the minister referred to include the not= ion that designated office-holders and public office-holders should retain a re= cord of meetings with lobbyists as an option as part of the education campaign? =

Hon. Mr. Silver: Part of that public engagement plan will be to get out to MLAs as well to ask th= em about what their good ideas and good practices are. I would put this under = the category of a good suggestion from the member opposite, so, sure, the answer would be yes.

Ms. Hanson: I thank him for that response.

Does t= his act contain within it a code of conduct for lobbyists?

Hon. Mr. Silver: Most provinces do not have codes of conduct for lobbyists. Instead, they put eth= ical principles directly into their legislation, and that’s exactly what we have done as well.

Accord= ing to our bill, it is an offence to knowingly place a public office-holder in a posit= ion of real or potential conflict of interest while lobbying that public office-holder.

It is = also an offence to knowingly submit a return that contains false or misleading information, and these principles are reflected in the federal code of cond= uct for lobbyists. We put these principles directly into the legislation to make sure that the rules are clear and easy to find. As far as a specific code of conduct, no, there isn’t one, but we are following the lead of other provinces and making sure that these ethical principles are put directly in= to the pages of the legislation.

Ms. Hanson: I thank the minister opposite for that reply. Could he tell me which section = those ethical principles are set out in?

Hon. Mr. Silver: I’ll direct the member opposite’s attention to par= t 5 of the legislation, section 23(1), which states, “Subject to subsection = (2), an individual who submits or provides a return or other document that conta= ins false or misleading information commits an offence.” That is pretty self-explanatory.

The se= cond piece here — and I quote again — this is subsection (2): “An individual does not commit an offence under subsection (1) if, at the time = when the return or document was submitted or provided, the individual (a) did not know that the information was false or misleading; and (b) could not, with = the exercise of reasonable diligence, have known that the information was false= or misleading.”

It is = not an offence (a) if the individual did not know at the time that they were retur= ning the submission that information was false, and then (b) also it is not an offence if he or she could have known — that is in that section. That= is 23(1) and 23(2), but also, continuing on to conflict of interests on public office-holders, section 24 states: “An in-house lobbyist or consultant lobbyist, who, in the course of lobbying a public office holder, knowingly places the public office holder in a position of real or potential conflict= of interests commits an offence.” Again, it is an offence to knowingly p= lace a public office-holder in a conflict-of-interest situation while lobbying.<= /span>

Ms. Hanson: The federal code of ethics for lobbyists talks about conflict of interest and s= pecifies three broad areas. In addition to what the member opposite referenced in quoting the sections of the legislation, they also talk about and specify — and I will just read it: “A lobbyist shall not propose or undertake any action that would place a public office holder in a real or apparent conflict of interest.”

The fi= rst one is preferential access: “A lobbyist shall not arrange for another person a meeting with a pub= lic office holder when the lobbyist and public office holder share a relationsh= ip that could reasonably be seen to create a sense of obligation… A lobb= yist shall not lobby a public office holder with whom they share a relationship = that could reasonably be seen to create a sense of obligation.” Going back to the nature of the territory and what the member opposite referenced earlier, it’s a small territory and there is no s= ix degrees of separation in this territory.

I am w= ondering how preferential access is dealt with in this legislation. The second part = of that, in terms of these highlighted areas, is: “When a lobbyist undertakes political activities on behalf of a person which could reasonably be seen to create a sense of obligation, they may not lobby that person for a specified period = if that person is or becomes a public office holder. If that person is an elec= ted official, the lobbyist shall also not lobby staff in their Office(s).”= ;

 We’re talking about political activities, preferential access and gifts. It is expressed in the legislati= on here: “To avoid the creation of a sense of obligation, a lobbyist shall not provide or promise a gift, favour, or other benefit to a public office holder, whom th= ey are lobbying or will lobby, which the public office holder is not allowed to accept.”

 We know from other guidelines that = exist that this includes everything from offerings of gifts, dinners, theatre = 212; you name it. There are all sorts of things that are offered seemingly with = good will, but often the underlying thing is that it is a gift with a purpose, w= hich is, “I want to be with you to talk to you about this issue”. It= is a paid thing and it actually records as their expenses.

Are th= ose kinds of conflicts of interest explicitly referenced in this legislation?<= /p>

Hon. Mr. Silver: No, they are not, but we do have conflict-of-interest legislat= ion that currently exists. When we talk about these concepts and about the sens= e of obligation — not necessarily in this legislation, but Yukon, as a government, has this conflict-of-interest legislation already there. If you find yourself in a situation — the member opposite is correct that Yu= kon is a small town. We wear many hats and sometimes have certain relationships with people who are either public office-holders or lobbyists. That obligat= ion to declare a conflict of interest already exists here in the Yukon. I will = draw members’ attention to section 19(1) of the proposed legislation. The purpose here is to provide further clarification to the public and lobbyist= s on matters relating to lobbying and the lobbyist registry. This gives the commissioner the authority to educate the public, and I’ll quote R= 12; it’s section 19(1): “The commissioner may issue and publish advisory opinions and interpretation bulletins with respect to the enforcem= ent, interpretation and application of this Act and the regulations.”

The re= ason why I’m saying it at this point is that as we are moving into that public education aspect, clarification as to conflict of interest can be addressed through the public education, but also there is something built right in he= re for the commissioner to have that authority as well though that clarificati= on system.

There = is no written code specific to this legislation that, I guess, the member opposit= e is looking for, but conflict-of-interest legislation does already exist in the Yukon.

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;That conflict of information that the minister opposite references has been repeatedly called upon by the Conflict of Interest Commissioner to be updat= ed, as it is so out of date. Is there any intention, as well as doing a public education piece on the goals and objectives of lobbying legislation, to also bring forward new conflict-of interest guidelines and legislation?

Hon. Mr. Silver: As the member opposite knows, there is lots of antiquated legislation. It is a= n opportunity for this government — if we try our best to keep the budgetary considerations to the spring budget and use our supplementary budget time wisely — to be able to do more legislating — then we will have = an opportunity to do so. Also, within the five-year review, there is an opportunity as well to highlight the specifics of the acts that we do have = that would work hand in glove with this new legislation to identify deficiencies= in our current legislation.

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;Could the minister confirm for the House the timing for the establishment of the registry and the public education program?

Hon. Mr. Silver: The coming-into-force date is dependent upon the creation of the lobbyist registration itself and also that educational campaign to inform Yukoners of those new requirements. In that process, we have a whole-of-government appr= oach here, working with Justice and other departments, to make sure that this happens as fulsomely as possible and in a timely manner. Without hedging an= y bets here, we are looking at spring 2019. Again, it is hard to make that commitm= ent, necessarily, without seeing how that public engagement time frame goes, but that is our trajectory right now.

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;I don’t think I have any more questions on the overall legislation. Probably when we go through it clause by clause, I will have some notes that will come out.

I also= just want to thank the officials as well for their briefing and for working on this legislation, which, in fact, is very much needed. I am very pleased to see = that it is before the House even though it is not quite what I would like to hav= e. It’s not quite there, but it’s good.

Mr. Kent: I just have one quick question for the Premier. This isn’t my primary critic role obviously, but I was looking through the legislation. Are school councils going to be captured as lobbyists or are they exempt? I don’t see them in the exemption list here, and I know they are an elected body, so I’m just curious if they are captured in here or not.

Hon. Mr. Silver: Again, if a board is lobbying, then a board is lobbying. That’s what it comes down to. It is the activity and not necessarily whether you are paid or whe= ther you are not. They aren’t mentioned specifically, but if any organizat= ion or any board comes to the government to advocate or to lobby for changes in policy or changes, then that activity could be considered that of a lobbyis= t.

I was = going to answer the Leader of the Third Party’s question. Sorry, I was going to make some comments. She has done her questions.

I thin= k the crux of the conversation here is: Is this lobbying? That is the question. If a person is lobbying the government — whether it be a board or whether = it be a paid lobbyist or those types of things — then registration may be required. It all depends on whether they are lobbying on behalf of a client= , an organization or a business.

To ans= wer the member opposite’s question — the House Leader of the Yukon Party — again, it all depends on whether they are lobbying on behalf of a client or for their organization or for their business. Not all meetings and not all communications are considered lobbying, and not everyone who communicates with the government is a lobbyist.

I woul= d imagine that most meetings between a school board and a department or a teacher wouldn’t necessarily be considered lobbying. Who are you communicating with? Are you communicating with a public official, a public servant or a public office-holder? What is the purpose of that communication? Are you communicating with the intent of influencing the outcome of a government de= cision?

Who ar= e you? Are you communicating on behalf of a client or for the purpose of your organiza= tion or your company? If you are not representing a client, how many hours have = you spent lobbying? If you spent 20 hours or more lobbying the government on be= half of your organization or company, then in that case, you would have to regis= ter.

We hav= e been asked a few times about our threshold on the 20 hours of lobbying in a year. That is low. That is low when considered in comparison with the rest of Can= ada. We are trying to strike a balance between capturing organizations or busine= sses that are experienced at lobbying and do it frequently with organizations or businesses that may do very little lobbying — as per the example that= the member opposite asked.

Again,= those are the questions that you have to ask yourself when you are meeting with a pub= lic stakeholder. I will see if there are any more questions from the members opposite.

Mr. Kent: I’m just curious as to why school councils weren’t considered to be exemp= t, given that they are elected bodies. The other elected bodies — the lo= cal advisory committees and, I think, municipalities and First Nation governmen= ts — were obviously considered to be exempt, so I’m curious why the government decided not to include school councils in that exemption list.

ItR= 17;s not just school councils, but it’s also the francophone school board as w= ell that would obviously be captured here, I think, as a lobbyist organization.=

Hon. Mr. Silver: I would direct the member opposite’s attention to — they’re not necessarily listed, but five pages in, in the definitions= section under what “organization” means — school councils and sch= ool boards haven’t necessarily been listed specifically, but anybody who hires a lobbyist would have to be considered lobbying for those purposes. <= /span>

If your organization means: (a) a business, trade industry, professional or volunta= ry group; (b) a trade union or labour organization; (c) a chamber of commerce = or board of trade; and (d) a society, association, charitable organization, coalition or interest groups — all of those things go under the defin= ition of “organization” under the act, which applies to the in-house lobbyist section of that act.

It wou= ld be — and I go back to this — that if it walks like a duck and if it talks like a duck — if you are lobbying, you need to register whether you’re a board or any of these organizations under the definition of “organization” that is very specific in the act when talking ab= out defining non-governmental organizations and businesses that are not corporations.

Mr. Kent: I’m curious. It sounds like the Premier, the minister, has said that school councils are considered lobbyists. They are elected; they’re paid = 212; it’s not a huge amount of money. It’s essentially a volunteer j= ob for a lot of them. I’m just curious as to why the school council and = the school board wouldn’t have been considered. I know they’re not a municipal government and they’re not a First Nation government, but t= hey are elected in most cases. We run school council elections.

I̵= 7;m just curious why they weren’t exempted as far as lobbying goes. We, as opposition members — and I’m sure as government members as well — meet with school councils on a regular basis in their ridings and t= alk to them about specific issues. A lot of the times, it probably would be considered some sort of lobbying, but we’re adding an additional administrative burden to register as a lobbyist and to track meetings and issues for essentially a volunteer board of parents.

Again,= I asked that question of why they wouldn’t have been considered, although not equal to municipal governments or First Nation governments, along those same lines and exempted from this legislation.

Hon. Mr. Silver: I don’t know if I was clear enough for the member opposi= te. As we take a look at the definition of “organization” when it come= s to defining non-government organizations, I don’t see in (a), (b), (c) or (d) any of these pertaining to a school council or school board. However, i= f a school board or a school council hired a lobbyist, well, then of course they would have to register. I want to be very specific to the members opposite.=

Taking= a look at the definition of “organization”, this does not look to be an a= rea where you would have to register. If that is not clear enough in the actual legislation, it could be something that we can work out in the regulations after the fact. Again, to my reading of this particular legislation —= and we take a look at the definitions for “in-house lobbyist” and “consultant lobbyist” and we get to that part where we are talk= ing about what an “organization” means — I don’t see the school boards or school councils that the member opposite is talking about = as being a business, a trade, an industry or a volunteer organization, so it wouldn’t be (a); (b) a trade union or labour organization — no, that doesn’t fit either; or (c) a chamber of commerce or board of tra= de — no, it doesn’t fit that definition. Maybe it could be under (= d) a society, but again, I wouldn’t say so — or association — = no, I wouldn’t say that. To me, if it is not clear enough in the legislat= ion, it definitely can be something that can be worked out in the regulations. Again, this is not a group that we are necessarily targeting. Would the mem= ber opposite want us to specifically mention them in the legislation? I think t= hat the legislation is clear enough.

Mr. Kent: When I am looking at the legislation, I recognize where he was talking about that specific part. I am looking at part 2, section 4(1). I will read where it s= ays: “This part does not apply to a person who is a member of any of the f= ollowing classes of persons, when acting in their official capacity.” It then mentions MLAs, Cabinet employees, caucus employees, members of the Senate, members of the House of Commons of Canada and their employees, employees wi= thin the meaning of the Public Service A= ct, employees of the Government of Canada or of the government of a province and members of councils of municipalities and of local advisory councils within= the meaning of the Municipal Act and their officers and employees. It goes on to list members of First Nation governments and their employees, officers and employees of the Council of Y= ukon First Nations within the meaning of the Cooperation in Governance Act and of the Association of Yukon Communities within the meaning of the Municipal Act an= d of the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation. Subsection (j) is: diplomatic agents, consular officers and official representatives in Canada of a foreign government; (k) officials of specialized agencies of the UN in Canada or officials of any other international organization to whom privileges and immunities are granted under an act of Parliament; and subsection (l) is prescribed classes of persons.

I am w= ondering if the Premier would consider, during clause-by-clause debate, amending this part of the act to include members of school councils and the francophone school board — that they also be included in this part where the part does not apply so that again, as elected members, they are given the same consideration as other elected members are throughout this piece where this part does not apply.

Hon. Mr. Silver: I would respectfully say that, as opposed to looking at the section of the legislation that specifically talks about those who are exempt, we could ta= ke a look at Division 3, “In-House Lobbyists”, and the actual interpretation of what it means to be a lobbyist. By reading through section 11, the member opposite hopefully will concur that the school councils and = the school boards do not qualify in those definitions of what it means to be an in-house lobbyist; therefore, there would be no need for us to amend the current legislation.

Howeve= r, with that being said, I will direct the member opposite’s eyes — in = that section that he was referring to, section 4 — to 4(1)(l) which says, “prescribed classes of persons”. This area here gives us the ability for additional positions to be identified through regulations. Alre= ady baked into the legislation is a compartment that allows us, through the regulation process, to identify anybody if there is a grey area considered.=

Again,= if you take a look at the “in-house lobbyist” and the definitions in there, I understand the member opposite’s concerns, but I believe tha= t, through the definition of what is a “lobbyist”, we have already dealt with that in the legislation and also through our regulation portal, = if you will. We have a section that allows for additional positions to be identified through the regulations.

Chair: Is th= ere any further general debate?

Hon. Mr. Silver: I did want to go over a few other examples here. I do apprecia= te the conversation here on the floor of the Legislative Assembly. This is new to = the Yukon, so there are going to be some questions on who is a lobbyist compare= d to who is advocating for their businesses or their non-profit organizations and those types of things.

I went= through a consultant example. I went through a sole proprietor example. I want to go through a couple of other examples as well — for example, when it com= es to volunteers. A volunteer board member from a small, non-government organization, for example — let’s say that somebody writes seve= ral letters to me as Premier or to the Leader of the Official Opposition indica= ting that a new law should be created. Other volunteers for the same organizatio= n — let’s say that they meet with MLAs for the same reasons. There are ot= her volunteers who are running bake sales and lemonade stands, and they are not necessarily board members. In this particular case, the volunteer board mem= ber is an in-house lobbyist — for example, they are trying to direct peop= le toward this, but the other volunteers are not captured by the definition of “in-house lobbyist” in this particular example, because they are not employees or senior officers and they do not control or oversee the ope= rations-directing mind — basically, for example — as set out in the definitions of the act.

Theref= ore, only the lobbying of the board member or of other board members counts toward th= at collective total — the total number of hours spent lobbying by the organization. If the board member lobbies or other board members lobby for = 20 hours or more in the calendar year, then they will need to register.=

We hav= e had lots of conversations in the development of this legislation about that concept.= We have so many non-government organizations and agencies in the Yukon. That is definitely going to be a big conversation at a lot of next meetings once th= is legislation starts getting underway, so we really encourage anybody who has these questions, as we get into the public engagement part, to have some questions up front about your organizations and about the work that you do,= and ask yourself some questions based upon the legislation — how you, in-house, are going to keep track of these pieces.

I know= in my experience working on boards of non-profit organizations or non-government organizations, that sometimes there is a lot of work being done that you ma= y or may not know is happening with other members of your organization, so it is= an opportunity now that we are moving forward with this open and transparent p= iece of the government to have those conversations at that level.

Anothe= r example, Mr. Chair, would be the executive director of an environmental group w= ho uses Twitter or other social media to encourage the public to contact their= MLA to vote down a bill. Is that lobbying? Well, the executive director in this case is an in-house lobbyist, and the method used is grassroots communicati= on, which is lobbying. That person would need to register if they are lobbying = or the collective lobbying of the organization — only if that reaches 20 hours.

Again,= it is a collective effort for the in-house that we are looking for — those 20 hours. We are looking at other jurisdictions when we come up with those numbers, and I think it is really important to look to those other jurisdictions of similar size when we are developing this first-in-Yukon legislation.

It was= brought up when I was in opposition — just talking to an MLA when you are at a local event or you see an MLA in the grocery store and those types of thing= s. The question is: Is talking to an MLA at a local event considered lobbying? Again, Mr. Chair, it depends on the purpose of that conversation and w= ho is involved. Members of the public who are not lobbyists can contact the government or their MLA at any time. The act refers to individuals who are communicating with the government on behalf of an organization or business = in an attempt to influence a government decision. They would need to register = if they do so for more than 20 hours in a year. Again, the 20-hour piece is the most important piece of that in-house lobbying.

In con= clusion, why are we introducing a lobbyist registry? Again, we are creating this lobbying registry to make lobbying activities more transparent to the publi= c.

We wan= t to establish a mandatory, publicly accessible registry that is similar to other jurisdictions in Canada to make sure that the general population knows who = is attempting to influence the government and the opposition MLAs as well as o= ther public office-holders.

I̵= 7;m happy to be answering questions here in Committee of the Whole. We believe that t= his is progressive legislation and that it is time in the Yukon for us to matur= e as a government. It’s an interesting concept. Lobbyists and lobbying end= eavours are things for which, if you are actually paid as lobbyist, you are happy to register. This is another way of showing the people for whom you work that = you are doing your job. It’s a way of telling the general public as well = who is meeting with whom and trying to influence these governments.

With t= hat, I will see if there are any other questions from the opposition.

Chair: Is th= ere any further general debate?

Seeing= none, we will proceed to clause-by-clause debate.

On Clause 1

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Clause 4

Hon. Mr. Silver: Sorry, Mr. Chair. You are going pretty quickly here. Ther= e was a lot in that last section. I’m just going to go back to clause 3, if that’s okay. I did have a note here.

Pursua= nt to Standing Order 14.3, I request the unanimous consent of Committee of the Whole to revisit clause 3.

Unanimous consent re revisiting clause 3

Chair: Mr.&n= bsp;Silver has, pursuant to Standing Order 14.3, requested the unanimous consent of Committee of the Whole to revisit clause 3.

Is the= re unanimous consent?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: Unani= mous consent is granted. Carry on.

On Clause 3 — revisited<= /i>

Hon. Mr. Silver: Thank you to members of the Assembly. I just want to take a lo= ok at the commissioner’s discretion in section 3, which states — and I quote: “This Act does not require identifying information about an individual to be disclosed if the commissioner reasonably determines that d= isclosure of the information could reasonably be expected to threaten the individual’s safety.” It’s an important piece, and I just wanted to identify it in the legislation. This provides the commissioner as identified in this section with the authority to exclude identifying information from being published in the public registry if there is a risk = to that individual’s safety. It’s an extremely important piece of = the legislation, in my opinion.

As an = office of our Legislative Assembly, records created by or under the control of the commissioner are not subject to ATIPP as well. I just wanted to make that c= lear to members opposite.

Ms. Hanson: I just ask the minister to again clarify: How could a paid lobbyist be at ris= k of being identified? I don’t quite get that. Could the minister explain again?

As I u= nderstand it, this does not require identifying information about an individual to be disclosed, but it seems oxymoronic in a lobbyist legislation to be talking about not disclosing the identity of somebody who is already obliged by the legislation to register because they’re a lobbyist. I’m just not sure what is intended here.

Hon. Mr. Silver: This isn’t about exemptions or anything like that. This = is about extenuating circumstances where the person believes their individual = safety to be threatened, and this does provide the commissioner to use that discretion.

Ms. Hanson: I guess the issue, then, centres around the word “individual”. Is= the individual a lobbyist?

Hon. Mr. Silver: Thank you to the member opposite. For clarity — yes, you= can think about it from the context of lobbying on behalf of a particular organization and it’s a contentious issue that is happening and god forbid, there are some threats out there in the public. This is one of those safeguards — for the safety of those individuals.

Clause 3 agreed to

On Clause 4

Clause 4 agreed to

On Clause 5

Clause 5 agreed to

On Clause 6

Hon. Mr. Silver: I would like to focus attention to section 6(2), which states — and I quote: “A consultant lobbyist who has, on or before the day on which = this section comes into force, started to lobby on behalf of a client further to= an undertaking must submit a return, in writing, not later than 90 days after = that day.” I just want to talk about the grace period. We’re allowin= g a grace period here for when the act comes into force to allow lobbyists sufficient time to understand the requirements of registering. I just wante= d to direct the attention of the members opposite to that particular clause.

Clause 6 agreed to

On Clause 7

Clause 7 agreed to

On Clause 8

Clause 8 agreed to

On Clause 9

Clause 9 agreed to

On Clause 10

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;This whole section talks about the duties of the lobbyists — to submit returns. We’re going through this rapidly, and I have a note to myself that this is all complaint-driven — and no proactive requirement in t= erms of registration. How do you know if somebody hasn’t registered unless= you find out by hearsay or whatever? Is there an absolute requirement for registration of consultant lobbyists?

Hon. Mr. Silver: Again, there is a requirement to register in the act. That is = the onus put upon the lobbyists and the organizations.

In sec= tion 3, we did speak to the role of the commissioner. The member opposite is right; we haven’t put an investigative power into the office of the commissione= r. We are trying to work within our means, and we are trying to get people to register as well. Time will tell how many people are actually going to regi= ster and fit these criteria that we have set out.

In tha= t, we did not give those investigative powers because we want to work inside our mean= s, but if someone doesn’t report — and there are many different wa= ys that it can be found out through that office. The commissioner does have the ability to make penalties based on the information that finds its way to the commissioner’s office. That is kind of where we have the legislation right now — without an investigative power of the Conflict of Interest Commissioner.

Ms. Hanson: I guess I understand, but it goes back to my earlier comments about the importance, then, of public office-holders and designated public office-holders, including MLAs, members of Cabinet and senior public servan= ts establishing best practices with respect to keeping records of themselves — of meetings with lobbyists. If there is no legal onus to register except by somebody registering a complaint with the Conflict of Interest Commissioner, then I would suggest that it presents a challenge to the whole system.

Hon. Mr. Silver: I would say that there is a legal requirement. This act provid= es that legal requirement to register and to be within the law as it is stated. This is a public registry as well, so the information will be public. Under those two constraints and confines, you find yourself in a situation where,= yes, the onus is on the lobbyists and the organizations to work within the law.<= /span>

Clause 10 agreed to

On Clause 11

Clause 11 agreed to

On Clause 12

Clause 12 agreed to

On Clause 13

Clause 13 agreed to

On Clause 14

Clause 14 agreed to

On Clause 15

Clause 15 agreed to

On Clause 16

Ms. Hanson: I just have questions in terms of setting out how the commissioner’s functions are going to be — the current Conflict of Interest Commissi= oner resides in Edmonton and comes up here once a year usually for a bit —= a short time.

How ar= e these commissioner’s functions going to be carried out? What’s the intention? What’s the infrastructure to do this in terms of the lobby= ist registry? Where is it housed? Is there a website — all that kind of stuff? Who is going to be responsible for ensuring that all of that informa= tion that we have been discussing this afternoon and prior to this about the lobbyist registry — could the minister elaborate on the infrastructure for this please?

Hon. Mr. Silver: Thank you for the question from the member opposite. Again, th= is particular section is where a lobbyist registry will be created — it = must be created.

As far= as the expanded role of the Conflict of Interest Commissioner, as we all know, they are an independent officer of the Legislative Assembly. The role will serve= as the registrar of the lobbyist registry in order to oversee and monitor the lobbyist registry.

The ac= t gives the commissioner the power to also educate the public and to provide clarification regarding the rules associated with lobbying. Again, to the question of new roles and responsibilities for this particular commissioner — just for the record, the commissioner will also have the discretion= to temporarily ban someone from lobbying after a conviction. It’s good to get that into Hansard.

As far= as the level of support needed, that will depend on a number of — how many people are going to register, for one. As far as the expanded role in gener= al, I will deal with that first and then we will talk about the geography piece= . We are going to find that out as we go once we know how many people are going = to register — the number of registrants — and also how the registration system is designed. That’s a key piece as far as the geo= graphy of where that particular commissioner resides.

For ex= ample, online systems are typically more automated and require less secretariat support. Our department has been in discussions with the Legislative Assemb= ly Office on this matter. Once we have more information about the resource requirements — of course, as members know and hear in the Legislative Assembly — we will then go to the Members’ Services Board to request additional resources if necessary or if needed. Again, switching to more of an online-based system will really help as far as reducing the barr= iers of time, space and distance for the current Conflict of Interest Commission= er. That particular commissioner’s extended role is based upon this legislation.

Ms. Hanson: Just to confirm then — so it is the intention to have secretariat support = from the Legislative Assembly Office. For example, if we look at 16(3), the regi= ster is also to be available on a website maintained by or for the commissioner. Practically speaking, are we asking somebody in Edmonton to do this, or are= we asking somebody who is based in Whitehorse to do it?

Hon. Mr. Silver: Let Hansard reflect that I’m pointing at the person who = is probably going to — no, that would be here, Mr. Chair.

Clause 16 agreed to

On Clause 17

Ms. Hanson: Again, going back to this issue of the secretariat function. Is it — when I = read “commissioner”, am I to read “commissioner or delegate or substitute” or whatever? Because when it says, “The commissioner may verify the information contained in a return or other document submitte= d or provided to the commissioner under this Act” — if we’re talking about registering somebody and the information — the baseline data, the tombstone data — about that lobbyist, is that the commissio= ner who is going to actually have to do that, or is it the secretariat function that is supporting the commissioner? How am I supposed to read it? That is = what I’m looking for.

Hon. Mr. Silver: Thanks for the question. So this section is basically saying t= hat the commissioner has the authority to verify the accuracy of information th= at is submitted by the lobbyist but also does have the authority to delegate t= hat responsibility to the secretariat.

Clause 17 agreed to

On Clause 18

Clause 18 agreed to

On Clause 19

Clause 19 agreed to

On Clause 20

Clause 20 agreed to

On Clause 21

Clause 21 agreed to

On Clause 22

Ms. Hanson: I just want to go back to clarifying clauses 21 and 20.

Chair: Ms.&n= bsp;Hanson, we’ve already cleared those. We will need unanimous consent to go bac= k.

Ms. Hanson: Pursuant to Standing Order 14.3, I request the unanimous consent of Committee of the Whole to revisit clause 21.

Unanimous consent re revisiting clause 21

Chair: Ms.&n= bsp;Hanson has, pursuant to Standing Order 14.3, requested the unanimous consent of Committee of the Whole to revisit clause 21.

Is una= nimous consent granted?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: Unani= mous consent has been granted. Carry on.

On Clause 21 — revisited

Ms. Hanson: Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your due diligence.

Could = the minister clarify what would be — I’m looking for examples on why there would be an exemption from prohibition with respect to lobbying for a period of time that — I mean, it’s fairly standard to have a six-month cooling-off period for just about everybody. We have seen instanc= es in the past — not-so-distant past — in the public service at se= nior levels where people one day are a public servant and the next day are lobbyists. I can’t think of any reason for any of the listed activiti= es. That’s why I was flashing back so rapidly there and missed that opportunity to stand, because I was looking to confirm again the definition= s or the designations of who would be held in there. I guess I’m looking f= or why there would be any exemptions provided for in this section.

Hon. Mr. Silver: It is a very legitimate question. When we take a look nationally at other jurisdictions, this requirement is in all legislation. The piece that I wou= ld direct the member opposite’s attention to is section 21(2): “The commissioner must enter the following in the register: (a) the terms and conditions of each exemption; (b) the reasons for the exemption.” As opposed to trying to figure out what would be a specific case, the important piece to take back from the legislation is that, whatever that circumstance= or situation is, the commissioner must publicly state what the reasons are for that.

Clause 21 agreed to

On Clause 22

Clause 22 agreed to

On Clause 23

Clause 23 agreed to

On Clause 24

Clause 24 agreed to

On Clause 25

Clause 25 agreed to

On Clause 26

Hon. Mr. Silver: On clause 26, as it was pertinent to the conversation here tod= ay, under “Returns and information” — and I quote: “An individual who contravenes any of sections 6 to 10 and 12 to 15 commits an offence.” Again, this is based upon questions from the member opposit= e, the Leader of the Third Party. It is an offence to not comply with the provisions regarding how, when and by whom returns should be submitted for consultants and for in-house lobbyists. I thought it was important to point= out this particular section of the legislation.

Clause 26 agreed to

On Clause 27

Clause 27 agreed to

On Clause 28

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;Mr. Chair, I am just curious about the levels of offence — for the first offence= , a fine of not more than $25,000, and for the second or subsequent offence, a = fine of not more than $100,000. I am pleased to see that this is taken so seriou= sly considering some of the other legislation we have seen before us this sessi= on with considerably smaller fines. Are these fines in line with what we see a= cross the jurisdictions in terms of other provinces?

Hon. Mr. Silver: Another great question — yes, these are standard right across Canada. The foc= us, again, is on not necessarily the NGOs and the ones that are leading up to t= he 20 hours — that type of thing — but it is these lobbyists who k= now the rules of the game, they know what the registry is, and it is more of a focus on those consultants who should know, in every jurisdiction in which = they work, the rules and regulations that are set forth by those particular governments. These are numbers that we have gotten from other jurisdictions= .

Clause 28 agreed to

On Clause 29

Clause 29 agreed to

On Clause 30

Clause 30 agreed to

On Clause 31

Clause 31 agreed to

On Clause 32

Clause 32 agreed to

On Clause 33

Clause 33 agreed to

On Clause 34

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;Again, this is another one where we anticipate there will be regulations, but I am just curious as to what the timeline is. Some of these are operational regulations, so are there timelines with respect to having the operational aspect of these regulations? Some of them enable — as time goes on, y= ou can pass regulations, but for those that are specific to getting this up and running, when is the anticipated coming into force of the whole of the legislation, including regulations?

Hon. Mr. Silver: Just to clarify, the coming into force of the legislation is n= ot determined upon the regulations, so we can definitely get that up and runni= ng. The big thing about when that timeline happens is the technology piece, as = far as how we are going to get the registry set up. That is the big timeline consideration. We can have that done and not be dependent on any changes or creation of regulations pertinent to this act under section 34.

Clause 34 agreed to

On Clause 35

Clause 35 agreed to

On Title

Title agreed to


Hon. Mr. Silver: Mr. Chair, I move that you report Bill No. 23, entit= led Lobbyists Registration Act, without amendment.

Chair: It ha= s been moved by Mr. Silver that the Chair report Bill No. 23, entitled Lobbyists Registration Act, without amendment.

Motion agreed to

&= nbsp;

Chair: The m= atter now before Committee of the Whole is continuing general debate on Bill No. 27, entitled Coroners Act<= /i>. Do members wish to take a brief recess?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: Commi= ttee of the Whole will recess for 15 minutes.

&= nbsp;



Chair: Order, please. Committee of the Whole will now come to order.

Bill No. 27: Coroners Act ̵= 2; continued

Chair: The m= atter before the Committee is continuing general debate on Bill No. 27, enti= tled Coroners Act.

Is the= re any further general debate?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I will just welcome Dan Cable and Sheri Hogeboom from the department. I recall that we ended with some remaining questions in general debate. I’m happy to do that. I thank my colleagues for being here. I will not take any more time on the floor other than to invite further gener= al debate questions. Thank you for the opportunity to introduce the officials.=

Mr. Cathers: I don’t have any further questions at this point in time. Just for the record for anyone reading Hansard, we have outlined and we stand by our concerns regarding the process with which the government developed this legislation. I previously on several occasions urged the minister to press = the pause button and do more consultation with a list of groups and agencies be= fore proceeding further. Of course, the minister has indicated a lack of willing= ness to do so. The fact that these include, among others, the Yukon Hospital Corporation, Emergency Medical Services, the Volunteer Ambulance Services Society, the Yukon Medical Association and the Yukon Registered Nurses Association, the Official Opposition continues to believe that those that we have listed in the motion tabled in the House, as well as mentioned in prev= ious debate, would all provide a valuable perspective and that the government sh= ould have taken the time to hear from them. Once the issue arose that it became evident that they failed to consult in detail with these agencies and group= s, the government should have taken our constructive suggestion, paused the progress on this legislation in the House and done an expedited consultatio= n. Since the government has chosen not to do so, we don’t see much value= in taking up time in this Assembly and reiterating points that we have already made which the minister is choosing not to listen to.

I will= hand the floor over to the Third Party for any questions that they may have.<= /p>

Chair: Is th= ere any further general debate on Bill No. 27?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I appreciate, Mr. Chair, that it wasn’t a question = from the member opposite, but I think it’s important to note that, while I appreciate his comments, it is the government’s position that we have done public consultation. We have done specific consultation with Yukon Fir= st Nations, with the RCMP, with former coroners and with community coroners. We have taken into account commentary from the Yukon Child and Youth Advocate = as well as from the RCMP and other organizations that we saw fit. We had submissions from 224 Yukoners to the public consultation, and there remain opportunities for further engagement with our partners and others involved = in the development of regulations going forward — that, in fact, this Legislation is woefully outdated. It is my position and the position of our government that the chief coroner requires a modernization of the tools that she needs to investigate matters on behalf of Yukoners and that, as a resul= t, the legislation has been developed through the process that I outlined earl= ier in response to questions.

As suc= h, I’m happy to continue answering questions about this, but it is unfortunate, in= my view, that we have not heard from the Official Opposition with respect to a= ny substantive matters involving this legislation. I appreciate that they have concerns about the engagement process and I have answered those questions, = but it is, in my view, unfortunate that substantive questions from them have not been forthcoming. I’m sure that, should they have issues, we will be = able to address them through answers to other questions brought forward either in general or in line-by-line debate.

Mr. Cathers: I was going to hand over the floor, but one of the comments that the minister made simply cannot be left unchallenged. To suggest that our suggestion that the health professionals and others who are involved in and will be affecte= d by this legislation should be consulted with in detail and in a meaningful man= ner was not a substantive point — it is very offensive to hear the minist= er characterize those groups in that manner and suggest that they could not provide valuable input.

I don&= #8217;t pretend to be a health professional or to deal with these situations in the field — as rural EMS members, rural supervisors, RCMP members, doctor= s, nurses and others do — but for the minister to dismiss the very idea = of getting their input is, I think, offensive to those groups. I think she sho= uld apologize to them — not to me. I don’t require any apology from= the minister, but she should apologize to them for her attitude toward them.

With t= hat, I will cede the floor to the Third Party.

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I think I need to clarify that my point about substantive questions — n= ot that the issue raised by the member opposite isn’t a substantive one = in his characterization — I’m sure it is substantive to him. I was making reference to the concept of no commentary with respect to the substantive sections of the act, which, of course, is a legal term about substance versus process. That’s my reference.

Ms. Hanson: I don’t have many comments, because I think we did cover quite a bit of ground in the second reading. I do look forward — because there is a = lot to go through in clause-by-clause debate — in part to maybe address s= ome of the concerns raised by the Member for Lake Laberge. Is there a review provision in this legislation — and if not, why not?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: There is no automatic review provision in Bill No. 27.

Ms. Hanson: I would just ask the minister to clarify what the intention of government was= in terms of not building in a review given, as she said, that there had been no substantive — this legislation, in its original form, dates back to 1= 958, and there have been bits and pieces over the years. If this is an attempt to modernize this legislation, wouldn’t government want to have a sense = of whether or not it is achieving the objectives that were set out for it and to do th= at within a timely manner?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I appreciate the question from the Leader of the Third Party. It is my experi= ence that review provisions are often put into — or should be put into = 212; brand new pieces of legislation, and I appreciate that this looks brand new= . We are removing things like “stenographer” references, and that se= ems pretty brand new. In order to proceed with the modernization of this, it wasn’t an automatic concept. Clearly we want to be checking in with t= he chief coroner to make sure that the provisions we have put in Bill No. = ;27, if and when they are passed by this Legislative Assembly, are, in fact, practically applicable on the ground and in the concept of her investigatio= ns.

I thin= k it is also important to note that automatic review provisions for every piece of legislation can potentially overburden the system. With respect to proceedi= ng with either new pieces of legislation or a full review of an act every five years, which is often the case in those kinds of provisions — it may achieve what I think is being suggested here. In this case, I think we will= be looking very closely to make sure that this piece of legislation does work = for the coroner. If there are new modernization techniques or new issues that n= eed to be dealt with from other pieces of legislation and best practices across= the country, we will bring those forward.

As als= o noted in my two technical amendments acts that have been brought before this Legisla= tive Assembly, I am keen to make sure — as is our government — that there are updates when needed, without the necessity of perhaps a full revi= ew of this piece of legislation. The policy determination was made to not put = in an automatic review clause, which could potentially overburden — and = we want to be closely watching to make sure that the coroner has the tools that she needs.

Ms. Hanson: Just one sort of sidebar comment — I would suggest that there is no gender associated with “coroner”, so it should be just “the coro= ner” from my point of view, in that we are not talking about any specific indivi= dual — “he” or “she” at this stage of the game = 212; it is “the coroner”.

I aske= d the question about reviews because, for example, we talked about the submission made by the Child and Youth Advocate with respect to areas where the Child = and Youth Advocate had advocated that certain provisions of Bill No. 27 are too narrow. I will just use one example — section 14(3) of the bill requires the director to notify the coroner only when a child has died while living in a residential facility. If the child is in the care of the direct= or of Family and Children’s Services, regardless of where they live I wo= uld hope that we would want to provide for that. Are we going to be amending — I don’t know which legislation — if we are not making t= hat a part of this legislation? Short of a review provision, how are these kind= s of recommendations, which are fairly critical to the effective operation of the act, going to be addressed?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I think that we discussed this the other day, but I want to be= sure that I correctly understand the question — a reminder that section 14, and then (3), makes reference to “the residence” because all of section 14 refers to individuals who are required to be in a particular location. Of course, section 16 notes that there is a duty to notify the coroner of any child death in any circumstance. I think that is the general provision. Again, we have noted earlier in our conversations that, in answe= ring questions, all provisions need to be read together.

I want= to comment briefly on the Child and Youth Advocate concept — that it was= too narrow. There is an enabling provision here in this legislation — and= I will ask my colleague to find it if I can’t make reference to the section — that allows the coroner, which does not exist in the current legislation, but allows the coroner to have agreements whereby their practi= ces and procedures would interact with other professionals. I certainly anticip= ate that the chief coroner — and I have no reference whatsoever to gender — I was referring earlier, Mr. Chair, to the current chief coron= er, who is a female, and I take the point — but generally, there is no su= ch provision for the current chief coroner to have such agreements with other professionals for the purposes of carrying out the requirements of this legislation. That is something that I would anticipate would happen going forward. I am certainly not suggesting or directing or anything like that, = but I can certainly anticipate such an agreement between the chief coroner and = the Child and Youth Advocate, whoever they may be, for making sure they have a mutual understanding of the practices that affect each.

Ms. Hanson: I just raise it because there is a difference between 14(3), which is an obligation under the legislation, and 16, which talks about doing so in accordance with regulations — and regulations that still haven’t been developed.

So if = we are trying to give comfort and clarity that any child in the care of the direct= or of Family and Children’s Services — not just the kids who are in the residential facilities, but anywhere — I raise this just as I rai= sed it last time, because we have seen across this country where we’re ge= tting into different kinds of arrangements, but that doesn’t take away from= the director’s legal obligations to those children who are in care, where= ver they may be.

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I appreciate that the regulations will place the duty to report a child death= on a particular group of people or individuals. Let me just back up to say tha= t a general requirement to report to the coroner any death in which there are suspicious circumstances or concern of any of the enumerated situations in section 13 is, of course, the overriding situation and is not related to location or status or care or anything like that.

The du= ty to notify of a child death in section 16, I suggest, is quite broad. I suggest= it should be even broader in a specific way through the regulations. I will suggest that the death of a child in the care of the director of Family and Children’s Services would, by way of best practices, be required no matter the situation in which they are being cared for — whether it’s with a family member, whether it’s by way of an agreement, whether it’s under a court order, whether it’s residential or a foster home — all of those situations — clearly the government being the parent, the director of Family and Children’s Services being the parent — those situations few and far between in the Yukon Territ= ory — thank goodness — would, of course, not escape the concept of regulation. There is no way, in my view, that the regulation should narrow = that responsibility in any way, shape or form.

In fac= t, the broad duty to report a child death should be — and I suspect, upon further engagement, will be — recommended no matter the situation, clearly for all the reasons contemplated by the Leader of the Third Party, = for all of the horror stories that some of us have heard of across the country.= At no point should the death of a child not raise questions to the point where, for instance, there would be some sort of requirement or regulation that wo= uld not require that death to be reported and, therefore, properly investigated= at the time so as to avoid some of the other situations that we have seen where inappropriate circumstances have gone unrevealed.

Chair: Is th= ere any further general debate on Bill No. 27?

Seeing= none, we will proceed to clause-by-clause debate.

On Clause 1

Ms. Hanson: I just ask for clarification of the inclusion or the death specifying — including “stillbirth”. Does that mean all stillbirths will be subject to a coroner’s review? I guess what I’m just trying to figure out is, was it just for clarification?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Under the definition section — if the member opposite co= uld just make reference to the word defined that I’m —

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Thank you.

I̵= 7;m advised that — and did not recall this independently, but I’m v= ery happy to have assistance — a stillbirth, by virtue of the definitions= and the operation of the Vital Statisti= cs Act, would not be included in the death of a child under that definition under t= he Coroners Act in the various places= here. It would be — because of the definition in the Vital Statistics Act, we wanted to be perfectly clear here that this could and should be reported, especially if there were allegations of = some sort of intentional act or concern about the other situations that are set = out in section 13.

Ms. Hanson: I have a question of clarification. So there’s a definition for “= health facility”, there is a definition for “place of temporary detent= ion”, there is a “residential facility” and a “youth custody facility”. Where would one place something like the Sarah Steele Buil= ding alcohol and drug treatment centre?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Let me just deal with the definition piece first. Residences l= ike the Sarah Steele residence, which is a voluntary program, are not therefore defined here by virtue of the operation of section 14, which does have definitions attached to it in the context of individuals living there. Of course, the general requirement for someone to have died unexpectedly or un= der any of the circumstances in section 13 — clearly the general provisio= n of section 13 is that the coroner should and needs to be advised of unexpected= and unexplained deaths of anyone. The resident’s provision in section 14, again, speaks to individuals who are there by virtue of an order of some ki= nd or a requirement to be there. Should someone have passed away, for instance= , at a facility like — I don’t want to blame the Sarah Steele facili= ty, but a facility like that — the provisions of section 13 apply, and the resident’s piece should be irrelevant as far as the notification or a= ny investigation done by the coroner, unless of course there is some connectio= n through the details of an investigation.

Clause 1 agreed to

On Clause 2

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;It comes back to the members of the public service. We have had this conversat= ion about a coroner — the various models that could have been chosen. I g= uess what I am looking for is some sense of the scope. It just says that you are going to choose from the members of the public service. With all due respec= t, not every member of the public service can be a chief coroner or a coroner.=

Hon. Ms. McPhee: The provision and the wording in clause 2 are really a drafting piece to indica= te to the public that, under the authority of this act, the chief coroner will= be an employee of the Yukon public service. There is, of course, separate R= 12; appropriately, in my view — and apart from this bill a chief coroner’s job description, which can be changed from time to time and adjusted, if necess= ary, based on the duties and responsibilities not only here in the Yukon, but ta= king into account best practices of the other coroner’s services in Canada= .

Ms. Hanson: Just clarify then — when reviewing legislation across the country, it is general practice then that coroners are employees of the government in ques= tion and are not appointed, for example, by an order-in-council or by independent officers of the legislative assemblies?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Thank you for the question. It is, by our recollection, the general practice that= , as with other particular employees of the territorial or provincial government= , it is both appointments to the positions and employees. Another example in the Yukon might be correctional officers, but by virtue of their duties, there = is a requirement under the various pieces of legislation for them to be appointed and employees. By recollection, that is the situation in most provinces or territories that have a similar coroner’s service to ours. We will confirm that and, if I am incorrect, provide that information to the member opposite.

Clause 2 agreed to

On Clause 3

Clause 3 agreed to

On Clause 4

Clause 4 agreed to

On Clause 5

Ms. Hanson: Just for the record, I would like to ask a question with respect to section 5(g): “… establish policies governing when the chief coroner may assu= me jurisdiction of particular investigations or may direct investigating coron= ers to investigate particular deaths”. My question that I have written in= my margin is if this is intended to be expansive. Section 22(1) says, “T= he chief coroner may for any reason direct an investigating coroner to stop…” — so this is about stopping it. I was just curious= as to what the intent of section 5(g) was?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I think we spoke a little bit about this the other day. This i= s new. I am referring to section 5(1)(g), which is the context to the question.

This i= s a new provision in the Yukon statute, but it does, in fact, reflect a power that = is already currently being exercised by the chief coroner. I may have said the other day that it’s not in the current act. It actually is sort of in= the current act, but finding it and determining that authority is quite complic= ated. Clearly we wanted to provide a clear statement of the authority and the pol= icy that is currently being practised by the chief coroner and the community coroners for that reason. Often a community coroner in the current practice — and this is expected to continue under this statute — does a preliminary investigation, but then the chief coroner comes to deal with the matter if that person would be available to do so.

It doe= s allow flexibility in the management of investigations and is something that is occurring. It could contemplate also with respect to particular deaths or particular investigations an investigating coroner under this piece of legislation who had a particular expertise, for instance, from their own experience as an investigating coroner or from perhaps previous experience = in their career if they were a former RCMP officer or if they were a former individual who dealt with any certain circumstances that would allow them or inform them as to how to complete an investigation or do one. It allows the chief coroner the flexibility to manage investigations. It also clearly sta= tes here that this person has the authority to do this, which I’ve said is generally what happens now but was quite unclear in the current legislation= .

Ms. Hanson: Just with respect to section 5(1)(k), it says, “… assist investigati= ng coroners and presiding coroners to engage experts where necessary.” <= /span>

I don&= #8217;t see any clarification later on in terms of experts, so are we talking about pathologists? Could the minister just give a couple of examples?

I̵= 7;m just curious: Would the coroner not want to also in certain circumstances as cor= oner engage experts? It says this is a power to do all these enumerated things to assist investigating coroners and presiding coroners. What about the coroner having to engage experts?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I appreciate the close attention to detail by the member oppos= ite with respect to the wording of section 5(1)(k). She is quite right. It refe= rs to investigating coroners and presiding coroners and not back to the chief coroner, but that is because when the chief coroner is completing an investigation himself or herself, they are acting as an investigating coron= er, so it will cover that situation. It is also an authority that rests with th= e chief coroner, because for practical purposes, it is the chief coroner who can contract and make arrangements for experts to assist in an investigation. It can be a pathologist. It is very broad — it could be the expertise of= a handwriting expert perhaps or another kind of medical expert other than a pathologist. It might be a particular lab situation that would need an anal= ysis done. It might be an expert in gunshot wounds or something to that effect. = I am trying to think of things that would be very broad. It is not restrictive at all for the chief coroner.

I am g= lad attention has been brought here. In my view, it is a very important provisi= on, based on how Bill No. 27 is laid out. The authority rests with the chi= ef coroner to run the investigation — the person with the expertise in t= his area — and also properly and clearly permits her or him to contract a= nd receive assistance from experts in the area. Clearly, a chief coroner is not going to be an expert in every area. When the need arises — and certa= inly for specific authority — broad authority properly rests with the chief coroner to complete the work that they need to do.

Ms. Hanson: If I may just have a moment for a non sequitur — the minister’s comment just reminded me when she talked about the handwriting expert. On As it Happens the other night, a w= oman was talking about being a handwriting expert and body language consultant. Perhaps the coroner could call upon her as well.

With r= espect to 5(1)(o), I just want to come back. The coroner has the power to “R= 30; communicate the recommendations made following investigations and inquests = to appropriate persons, ministers, agencies or departments of government and m= ake public any response or lack of response to those recommendations.” I think this is really key and so I the question I have is: They have the pow= er, but are they obliged to do so — to establish a system for both record= ing the recommendation and the response or lack of so that we see progress over time?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I appreciate the question. It is an enabling power here, so it= is not a requirement for the coroner to do so, but I think it is important that Yukoners and all of us remember that the chief coroner operates and does th= eir job in the public interest.

A chie= f coroner who was not providing — let me just back up for a second to say that a key part of their responsibilities is, in fact, to make sure that the Yukon public, in this case, understands the situation of a particular death and h= as the opportunity to assess it for themselves. A key element is a preventive factor in the results of an investigation.

While = the short answer is that there is not an absolute requirement for the coroner to do s= o, by virtue of the definition of a chief coroner’s job — informing the public being a key element of that — there are provisions set out= in this section and later that show that the chief coroner can determine that process for themselves and that the public will have such expectations of t= hem — protecting an individual’s privacy, of course.

Clause 5 agreed to

On Clause 6

Clause 6 agreed to

On Clause 7

Ms. Hanson: I just have a question of clarification. Clause 7(1) says that the Commission= er in Executive Council may appoint one or more persons to be investigating coroners. The Commissioner in Executive Council under clause 7(2) must cons= ider any recommendations of the chief coroner before appointing — I just a= sk the minister to confirm that it’s necessary to consider the recommendations but not necessary to accept the recommendations. On what ba= sis, I guess, would there be a rationale to not accept a recommendation of the c= hief coroner?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Drafting legislation, of course, as the member opposite well k= nows, is sometimes an exercise in all possibilities in the future, which is always difficult.

This p= rovision allows the chief coroner to make recommendations for appointments of investigating coroners. I was going to say that it’s short in my experience, but I have had some experience before I had this job with respe= ct to how that process has gone.

Clearl= y, the chief coroner always makes such recommendations. I will go so far as to, I think, recall that, in fact, applications for investigating coroners would = go to the coroner himself or herself and to the chief and that recommendations come forward in that manner.

My fir= st comment about it being all possibilities in the future — I suppose there is a possibility where a situation could arise where we are — or a future government is — short on investigating coroners, and an issue where t= he chief coroner could not make such a recommendation — so rather than t= ie it — it must be — clearly, any investigating coroners who would= be appointed should come at the recommendation of the chief coroner, but it’s not an absolute requirement here.

Clause 7 agreed to

On Clause 8

Clause 8 agreed to

On Clause 9

Clause 9 agreed to

On Clause 10

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;Clause 10(3)(c) is a sentence that drives a person who is not a lawyer crazy. It s= ays, “To be included in the list under subsection (1), a person must be= 230; (c) a prescribed person or a person who is in a class of prescribed persons.” What does that mean in English, Mr. Chair?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: It drives lawyers crazy too, just so you know — at least this one. For clarification, it makes reference to the lists or the categories of individ= uals who will live in the regulation. It could be a list of individuals that says actual names of persons as a “prescribed” individual, or it cou= ld be a description of a group of people — something like a chief coroner from another province or territory in Canada or something like that. It wou= ld either be a class of prescribed persons — that would be the reference= to other chief coroners, et cetera — or a prescribed person or persons w= ould be the situation where named individuals would be included in the regulatio= n, if I can say it that way.

Clause 10 agreed to

On Clause 11

Clause 11 agreed to

On Clause 12

Clause 12 agreed to

On Clause 13

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;This is the general duty to notify a coroner of a death. There are a number of enumerated reasons to notify the coroner. I guess those that are dealing wi= th health-related ones — “(a) as a result of violence, negligence, malpractice, misconduct or accident; (b) as a result of a self-inflicted injury; (c) suddenly and unexpectedly when the person appeared to be in good health; (d) from a cause other than disease or sickness; (e) from disease or sickness for which the person was not being treated by a medical practitioner.” My question is: What about one for which one is being treated? You have situations where somebody — I can cite one exactly — is being treated and dies. That is not necessarily malpractice. Nob= ody is accusing anybody of malpractice, but they have died while being treated.=

Hon. Ms. McPhee: The member opposite notes in section 13 that this is about general duty or which lays out the circumstances that trigger a general duty to report an unexpec= ted or an unexplained death for, presumably, someone who is being treated by a medical practitioner and dies.

That w= ould not trigger a situation where the coroner must be advised. The coroner could be advised. This is a specific duty and a general duty to inform the coroner of individual deaths. Clearly, the coroner does not investigate every death th= at occurs. The situations set out in section 13 are, in fact, triggers for when the general duty is required and individuals are required to act.

Clause 13 agreed to

On Clause 14

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;I just want to come back to section 14(5), because I’m going through th= is where my marginal notes are. This is “The duty to notify the chief coroner under subsections (1) to (4)” — all of those are variou= s, sort of, institutional settings — so that duty “…applies whether or not the person died at the place, if the death was directly or indirectly caused by that place.” I’m trying to figure out how = that coordinates — or maybe I’m misreading — but in part 4, section 18(d) — 18 is “The purpose of an investigation of a dea= th under this Act is to determine, to the extent that it is possible to do so… (d) the cause of death”. How do you know, at this stage, whether or not it is the cause of death, if the purpose of the investigatio= n is to determine the cause?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Again, section 14 makes reference to individuals who are requi= red to remain in a particular facility. The reference in subsection (5) of that is= an excellent question with respect to whether the death is directly or indirec= tly caused by that place — clearly, in most cases, that will be a determination of the investigation but, for instance, in a case where the c= ause of death is otherwise known — let’s say an individual who was n= ot at such a residence was hit by a car in a car accident — so the cause= of death is likely not related directly or indirectly to the residence, but ag= ain, if the cause of death can be determined to be completely unrelated in most cases — if, for instance, there were open questions about their cause= of death, then the reference would be that the investigation should take place= .

Clearl= y, it’s because the individuals are required to be living at a certain p= lace and that the effect on their health and well-being could easily be affected= by that location. In most cases, the member opposite is right. The determinati= on would need to be made through an investigation that there could be some cas= es where, perhaps, in a certain situation, it is obviously not related.

Clause 14 agreed to

On Clause 15

Clause 15 agreed to

On Clause 16

Ms. Hanson: I just want to confirm that this is again another one that’s going to be with regulations — to clarify the timeline for regulations and the consultation that would be done with respect to these kinds of regulations — with whom the regulations speak.

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I know I probably should have had some independent recollection of the dates planned, but I did not for a number of reasons.

I am g= oing to assume, if Bill No. 27 passes during this session, that very early in = the new year, we would construct a plan for further engagement and that certain= ly by the fall of 2019 — that would be my preference and direction to the department — making sure that the full engagement of individuals who = want to participate in the development of these regulations is, in fact, the cas= e.

Member= s will have heard me also say that passing a bill or a new piece of legislation or= an amended piece of legislation is not valuable unless it is given life with r= eal regulations as soon as possible. So I think we will be looking at late next summer or the summer of 2019. I’m trying to be realistic with respect= to the agenda of the department.

Clause 16 agreed to

On Clause 17

Clause 17 agreed to

On Clause 18

Ms. Hanson: I just want to come back to clause 18(h) — the purpose of an investigat= ion of a death under this act is to determine, to the extent that it is possibl= e to do so, whether it is in the public interest to hold an inquest into the dea= th. There are specific provisions in part 6, as I understand it, about when an inquest should be held and also the provision that allows, as I understand = it — and I ask the minister to correct me, if I’m not — a fa= mily member or family or affected individuals to request an inquest to be held.<= /span>

Is thi= s just a broad basket clause that is in here for the purpose to indicate, if nothing else, that there is a public interest provision?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Section 18, entitled “Purpose of investigation”, i= n fact describes the purpose of an investigation and what information the investigating coroner is to ascertain. It is a discretionary section with b= road powers and enumerates the purpose for which the investigating coroner or the chief coroner can direct investigations and the investigating coroner can conduct one. It relates back to investigative powers — and the two re= late to one another — so that there is a specific statement of the authori= ty and the purpose for which the chief coroner would otherwise conduct an investigation.

Clause 18 agreed to

On Clause 19

Clause 19 agreed to

On Clause 20

Clause 20 agreed to

On Clause 21

Clause 21 agreed to

On Clause 22

Ms. Hanson: Clause 22(1) says: “The chief coroner may for any reason direct an investiga= ting coroner to stop their investigation into the facts and circumstances of a death.” That is pretty broad. I am looking for an explanation or an interpretation for any reason — it must be a substantive reason, I wo= uld imagine — but it doesn’t say that. It just says “any reason”.

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Section 22, which is the reassignment of investigation —= we spoke a bit earlier today and also previously about the idea that we’= re trying here to properly set out the authority and the practice of the chief coroner to take over investigations after a preliminary investigation has b= een done by, for instance, a community coroner. It is very broad because it als= o is the same section that deals with the disqualification of an investigating coroner if that were a situation that needed to be dealt with.

It is = a broad authority. It is one section that deals with each of those possible situati= ons. I appreciate that, for the purposes of the drafting, it does, I suppose, anticipate that a chief coroner could stop an investigation for some inappropriate reason or for some reason untoward, but because the chief cor= oner acts in the public interest, it’s not likely that anything to that end would be undertaken without broader public knowledge or without a request to the minister, which is also permitted in this legislation, to correct such a situation.

Clause 22 agreed to

On Clause 23

Clause 23 agreed to

On Clause 24

Ms. Hanson: I’m just curious if there is any interpretive sense of what “substantial connection to Yukon” is under 24(a). This is where the chief coroner = may investigate a death that occurred outside Yukon if the facts and circumstan= ces related to the death have a substantial connection to Yukon and are such th= at, had the death occurred in Yukon, it would have been a death of which notification — so is that the death or the person who has a substanti= al connection to Yukon?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I appreciate the question here because this is, again, an opportunity to add a best practice to our legislation that has not existed in a clear way before. This provision allows the Yukon’s chief coroner to investigate a death that occurred outside of the Yukon and lists the criteria that allows such = an investigation to take place. In answer to the question, it is the death that has to be connected to the territory, not necessarily the person, although = the reality is that in most cases it would be both. It’s really about the idea that primarily the Coroner’s Service has the authority with resp= ect to geographic location of the body of the individual. We can imagine, for instance, an individual who might have been injured in the Yukon and medeva= ced Outside. This would allow our coroner to be involved in that investigation,= and there would be many imaginable reasons why that might be necessary. It would also cover, for instance, situations perhaps where somebody might be inside= the BC border — Atlin or other places on the = way to highways or on both passes, for instance, to Haines and Skagway — whe= re their death could be substantially connected and our Yukon coroner could ha= ve that opportunity. It might be a situation where, like the Leader of the Thi= rd Party asked, I think, last week about the individual who passed away while receiving services and treatment in another province and has a substantial connection and, in fact, is in that province by virtue of an order of our Review Board. It would allow our coroner to work with other coroners to be involved in the review or investigation in that kind of a situation.=

Clause 24 agreed to

On Clause 25

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;I thank the minister for her previous answer. The next one is “Investigation without a body.” Clause 25(1) is: “An investigating coroner may investigate the death of a person even if the body has been destroyed, cannot be recovered, cannot be located or is not in Yukon.” Then 25(2) is: “An investigating coroner may investigate the death of a person (a) even if the body has been buried; and (b) if the = chief coroner is of the opinion that the disinterment of territory body is not required for the investigation.” My question is for both of those circumstances in 25(1) and (2) is: Is there a time frame or an outer statut= ory limit in terms of how far back that kind of decision goes with respect to conducting an investigation either without a body physically present becaus= e it is buried or if the body is not available?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: To answer the question, no, there is not a time limit. Clearly= this kind of a situation would be affected by the passage of time simply because evidence deteriorates, memories deteriorate and the longer away from a particular incident the less valuable, on many occasions, an investigation = can be, but there is no specific time limit here.

Other = than being affected by the opportunity to gather evidence and make an assessment, it’s not specific.

Clause 25 agreed to

On Clause 26

Clause 26 agreed to

On Clause 27

Clause 27 agreed to

On Clause 28

Clause 28 agreed to

On Clause 29

Ms. Hanson: I just have a couple of questions with respect to section 29(1). It says: “The chief coroner or an investigating coroner may authorize a peace officer to exercise a power of an investigating coroner under paragraph 26(1)(d) or (e).”

A peac= e officer is a pretty broad definition. I’m just sort of wondering how that wor= ks with those two sections — 26(1)(d). Is it simply just to secure the s= cene as a peace officer?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

The sh= ort answer is generally yes. It’s about allowing an investigating or a chief cor= oner to delegate responsibilities to a peace officer in order, for instance, to secure a scene of a death or take charge of wreckage.

It als= o allows for the investigating or the chief coroner to delegate responsibilities to a peace officer in order for them to take possession of a body if that was not something that the chief coroner could do immediately — or on the chi= ef coroner’s behalf even examine the body — but these are provisio= ns to deal with the practicality of a chief coroner or investigating coroner b= eing at a scene where there are unexplained questions or situations where the RC= MP or other peace officers might be involved to assist in carrying out the dut= ies of the chief or investigating coroner.

I have= just received a note and I can recall that this is something that describes the current practice as well as provisions. Again, they are not quite as clear = as that which exists in the current act.

Clause 29 agreed to

On Clause 30

Ms. Hanson: I just want to ask in terms of clarification about the assistance of peace officers, section 30(1): “An investigating coroner may request that a peace officer assist with the investigating coroner’s investigation i= nto the facts and circumstances of a death.”

I can = understand a peace officer or policeman coming on a scene, but does a “peace off= icer” include — by definition — a “correctional officer”?=

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Ms. Hanson: Or “conservation officers”? What is the definition of a “peace officer” in this case? I don’t see it in the definitions sections, so I’m j= ust curious.

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Our reference is that it is in the Interpretation Act. We’re just trying to see if we have a reference section for that or a definition section of that. I also just wan= t to note, with respect to section 30, that section 6(4) of the current act is related to this particular situation. There is a definition. I’ll read that for the members opposite. In the Interpretation Act, it defines that ‘“peace officer” means a peace officer as defined in the Criminal = Code (Canada);” and then if we went to the Criminal Code of Canada, we would have a broad definition of “peace officer”, which I’m happy to provide for the members opposite. =

With r= espect to section 30, in a more general way, the section makes clear that a peace off= icer who has been requested to assist with a coroner’s investigation can o= nly make inquiries to further that investigation and must make a detailed repor= t of their findings to the investigating coroner.

The re= quirement there is that they no longer act as a peace officer, so clearly someone nee= ds to assist the coroner in the furthering of the chief coroner’s duties= . In fact, they are not also gathering other kinds of evidence or conducting a separate kind of investigation. Their duties must be clearly articulated on behalf of the chief coroner and reported as such — and then made sure that they are not conflicting with any other duties.

Mr. Cathers: The comments from the Leader of the Third Party brought an issue to my attentio= n with regard to the definition of “peace officer”, and I would just a= sk the minister if she could provide some clarification related to this. We ha= ve discussed on a number of occasions in the Assembly what we see as the impor= tance of reinstating the RCMP auxiliary constable program. We haven’t seen = much in the way of action from government on implementing the three tiers of the program.

The two questions I have are: First of all, is the minister aware that RCMP auxilia= ry constables are designated under the Auxiliary Police Act as auxiliary police officers but are also appointed as supernumerary special constables under the
RCMP act and that the later statute, under what I believe is subsection 11.1(2), designates those constables as peace officers and then gives them,= of course, the according authorities with that regard, including the power of arrest, which has not always been used regularly but does exist if that pro= gram is active. First of all, is the minister aware of that?

Second= ly, under this section of the Coroners Act, is it the intent to allow for the possibility of using RCMP auxiliary constabl= es in the role described by this section, or are they not included in that?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I appreciate the question. With respect to the auxiliary police officers and where they would have their authority and by virtue of definit= ions in the RCMP act as supernumerary officers — or, therefore, as peace officers — it would only be applicable if, in fact, by virtue of our definition, it was incorporated into the definition in the Criminal Code of Canada. I don’t have the Criminal Code with me right now, a= nd I am loath to give advice to such detailed situations without looking at the = act.

It is = enabling, so I suppose that could be a possibility, but it is not contemplated at this stage. Clearly, however, we want to make sure that, in the event that auxil= iary police officers do become a reality again — we, of course, recognize = that you could be in a situation with an investigating coroner in a far region of the Yukon Territory where they would need to be, and appropriately would be, assisted by such individuals. The possibility of the chief coroner — investigating coroner — seeking their assistance is certainly contemplated by Bill No. 27.

Mr. Cathers:&= #8195;I appreciate the partial answer by the minister. I am not going to spend too = much time on this issue at this point, but I am just going to take one more opportunity to emphasize to the minister the importance of reinstating the = RCMP auxiliary constable program and implementing all three tiers of the program= .

I know= that it is frustrating for some of the formerly active RCMP auxiliary constables in= the Yukon that this issue has been going on for quite some time. The solution w= as made possible when the RCMP changed its policy through our work in governme= nt as well as the work of former Senator Lang and others, as well as other provinces. We have not seen a lot of action on this issue, and the Liberal government is coming up on their second anniversary in office.

I don&= #8217;t want the minister to find this point insulting at this stage. I am just try= ing to simply say that this is a valuable and important program. Implementing a= ll three tiers of the RCMP auxiliary constable program would be very beneficia= l to the Yukon and the role that they have played in matters, including the checkstop program where they do have the ability to act as peace officers, including the power of arrest, which is distinct from what any other volunt= eers at road stops have.

Those = other volunteers do not have the power of arrest. They do not have the same abili= ty as an RCMP auxiliary constable to step in. The connection of this to the Coroners Act is not only with rega= rd to the specific clause, but it’s fair to say that RCMP auxiliary members through the checkstop program have saved lives by taking drunk drivers off = the road. With the legalization of cannabis, the RCMP themselves have stated th= at they anticipate more impaired drivers. I’m emphasizing this point bec= ause I do believe that a choice to fully implement all three tiers of the RCMP auxiliary constable program in the Yukon would result in someone’s li= fe being saved at some point.

I woul= d draw the minister’s attention to that and urge her to just sincerely recognize= the importance of reinstating that program to avoid a situation where this piec= e of legislation, the Coroner’s Ac= t, has to come into play when a life could have been saved by an impaired driv= er being caught.

I will= conclude my remarks on that point.

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Thank you.

Clause 30 agreed to

On Clause 31

Clause 31 agreed to

On Clause 32

Clause 32 agreed to

On Clause 33

Clause 33 agreed to

On Clause 34

Clause 34 agreed to

On Clause 35

Clause 35 agreed to

On Clause 36

Clause 36 agreed to

On Clause 37

Clause 37 agreed to

On Clause 38

Clause 38 agreed to

On Clause 39

Ms. Hanson:&#= 8195;I just want to know the link between this one, which speaks to the chief coro= ner opening or reopening an investigation — so here it says: “A per= son may apply to the chief coroner to have an investigation into the death of a person opened, or to have a completed investigation reopened, on the grounds that new evidence has arisen…” Then there is a whole series of = (1) through (5) or something — in terms of outlining how that process wou= ld unfold. I’m wondering what the link is to section 25. Is this just the chief coroner?

One ta= lks about the investigating coroner, and this one talks about the chief coroner. Mayb= e I am getting confused as to which coroner.

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Section 39 contemplates a situation where there has either never been an investigat= ion into a matter or an investigation has taken place and has been completed. T= here is a finding of some kind but new evidence comes to light.

ItR= 17;s not about transfer of an investigation from an investigating coroner to the chi= ef or otherwise, but really contemplates the opening or reopening of a matter = if the criteria is met, if it is in the public interest, and that decision is taken by the chief coroner.

Clause 39 agreed to

On Clause 40

Clause 40 agreed to

On Clause 41

Clause 41 agreed to

On Clause 42

Clause 42 agreed to

On Clause 43

Ms. Hanson: I just want to acknowledge that this provision here, 43(1) — “= 230; a family member of a deceased person or another interested person…= 221; — sets out the circumstances under which a family member can request = an inquest, which we think is a very positive move. The question I have is und= er 43(5) and the fact that the minister’s decision on whether to direct = that an inquest be held is final. I just want, for the record, to ask the minist= er then to confirm whether or not a family member of a deceased person or anot= her interested person who really feels vehemently that an inquest should be held — is there any recourse? What recourse do they have?

Hon. Ms. McPhee: I appreciate the question. We spoke a little bit about this the other day. If there is some, let me just say it like this: All decisions are subject to judicial review if they would meet the criteria for a judicial review under the Supreme Court rules of the territory.

If the= re was some possibility that a family or other loved one felt that either the mini= ster was not carrying out that duty appropriately or there was some other allega= tion of concern, an application could be made to the Supreme Court for judicial review of that decision. Like all decisions, even the ones that are stated = to be final, that is the statutory authority to do so, but if there was a situation or allegation of impropriety of some kind or not taking something= into account or not doing their duty, it could be judicially reviewed.

Clause 43 agreed to

On Clause 44

Ms. Hanson: Mr. Chair, I move that you report progress.

Chair: It ha= s been moved by Ms. Hanson that the Chair report progress.

Motion agreed to


Hon. Ms. McPhee: I move that the Speaker do now resume the Chair.

Chair: It ha= s been moved by Ms. McPhee that the Speaker do now resume the Chair.

Motion agreed to


Speaker resumes the Chair<= /p>


Speaker: I w= ill now call the House to order.

May th= e House have a report from the Chair of Committee of the Whole?

Chair’s report

Mr. Hutton: Mr. Speaker, Committee of the Whole has considered Bill No. 23, entitled Lobbyists Registration Act, and di= rected me to report the bill without amendment.

Commit= tee of the Whole has also considered Bill No. 27, entitled Coroners Act, and directed me to report progress.

Speaker: You= have heard the report from the Chair of Committee of the Whole.

Are yo= u agreed?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: I d= eclare the report carried.

&= nbsp;

Hon. Ms. McPhee: Mr. Speaker, I move that the House do now adjourn.

Speaker: It = has been moved by the Government House Leader that the House do now adjourn. =

Motion agreed to


Speaker: Thi= s House now stands adjourned until 1:00 p.m. tomorrow.

&= nbsp;

The House adjourned at 5:29 p.m.




The following sessional papers were tabled November 5, 2018:


Yukon Public Servic= e Labour Relations Board Annual Report 2017-2018 (Most= yn)



Yukon Teachers Labo= ur Relations Board Annual Report 2017-2018 (Most= yn)

&= nbsp;

&= nbsp;

&= nbsp;

&= nbsp;

------=_NextPart_01D475D5.320FD810 Content-Location: file:///C:/B1334A50/110_files/item0010.xml Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/xml ------=_NextPart_01D475D5.320FD810 Content-Location: file:///C:/B1334A50/110_files/props011.xml Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/xml ------=_NextPart_01D475D5.320FD810 Content-Location: file:///C:/B1334A50/110_files/themedata.thmx Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-officetheme UEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQDp3g+//wAAABwCAAATAAAAW0NvbnRlbnRfVHlwZXNdLnhtbKyRy07DMBBF 90j8g+UtSpyyQAgl6YLHjseifMDImSQWydiyp1X790zSVEKoIBZsLNkz954743K9Hwe1w5icp0qv 8kIrJOsbR12l3zdP2a1WiYEaGDxhpQ+Y9Lq+vCg3h4BJiZpSpXvmcGdMsj2OkHIfkKTS+jgCyzV2 JoD9gA7NdVHcGOuJkTjjyUPX5QO2sB1YPe7l+Zgk4pC0uj82TqxKQwiDs8CS1Oyo+UbJFkIuyrkn 9S6kK4mhzVnCVPkZsOheZTXRNajeIPILjBLDsAyJX89nIBkt5r87nons29ZZbLzdjrKOfDZezE7B /xRg9T/oE9PMf1t/AgAA//8DAFBLAwQUAAYACAAAACEApdan58AAAAA2AQAACwAAAF9yZWxzLy5y ZWxzhI/PasMwDIfvhb2D0X1R0sMYJXYvpZBDL6N9AOEof2giG9sb69tPxwYKuwiEpO/3qT3+rov5 4ZTnIBaaqgbD4kM/y2jhdj2/f4LJhaSnJQhbeHCGo3vbtV+8UNGjPM0xG6VItjCVEg+I2U+8Uq5C ZNHJENJKRds0YiR/p5FxX9cfmJ4Z4DZM0/UWUtc3YK6PqMn/s8MwzJ5PwX+vLOVFBG43lExp5GKh qC/jU72QqGWq1B7Qtbj51v0BAAD//wMAUEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQBreZYWgwAAAIoAAAAcAAAAdGhl bWUvdGhlbWUvdGhlbWVNYW5hZ2VyLnhtbAzMTQrDIBBA4X2hd5DZN2O7KEVissuuu/YAQ5waQceg 0p/b1+XjgzfO3xTVm0sNWSycBw2KZc0uiLfwfCynG6jaSBzFLGzhxxXm6XgYybSNE99JyHNRfSPV kIWttd0g1rUr1SHvLN1euSRqPYtHV+jT9yniResrJgoCOP0BAAD//wMAUEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQCW ta3ilgYAAFAbAAAWAAAAdGhlbWUvdGhlbWUvdGhlbWUxLnhtbOxZT2/bNhS/D9h3IHRvYyd2Ggd1 itixmy1NG8Ruhx5piZbYUKJA0kl9G9rjgAHDumGHFdhth2FbgRbYpfs02TpsHdCvsEdSksVYXpI2 2IqtPiQS+eP7/x4fqavX7scMHRIhKU/aXv1yzUMk8XlAk7Dt3R72L615SCqcBJjxhLS9KZHetY33 37uK11VEYoJgfSLXcduLlErXl5akD8NYXuYpSWBuzEWMFbyKcCkQ+AjoxmxpuVZbXYoxTTyU4BjI 3hqPqU/QUJP0NnLiPQaviZJ6wGdioEkTZ4XBBgd1jZBT2WUCHWLW9oBPwI+G5L7yEMNSwUTbq5mf t7RxdQmvZ4uYWrC2tK5vftm6bEFwsGx4inBUMK33G60rWwV9A2BqHtfr9bq9ekHPALDvg6ZWljLN Rn+t3slplkD2cZ52t9asNVx8if7KnMytTqfTbGWyWKIGZB8bc/i12mpjc9nBG5DFN+fwjc5mt7vq 4A3I4lfn8P0rrdWGizegiNHkYA6tHdrvZ9QLyJiz7Ur4GsDXahl8hoJoKKJLsxjzRC2KtRjf46IP AA1kWNEEqWlKxtiHKO7ieCQo1gzwOsGlGTvky7khzQtJX9BUtb0PUwwZMaP36vn3r54/RccPnh0/ +On44cPjBz9aQs6qbZyE5VUvv/3sz8cfoz+efvPy0RfVeFnG//rDJ7/8/Hk1ENJnJs6LL5/89uzJ i68+/f27RxXwTYFHZfiQxkSim+QI7fMYFDNWcSUnI3G+FcMI0/KKzSSUOMGaSwX9nooc9M0pZpl3 HDk6xLXgHQHlowp4fXLPEXgQiYmiFZx3otgB7nLOOlxUWmFH8yqZeThJwmrmYlLG7WN8WMW7ixPH v71JCnUzD0tH8W5EHDH3GE4UDklCFNJz/ICQCu3uUurYdZf6gks+VuguRR1MK00ypCMnmmaLtmkM fplW6Qz+dmyzewd1OKvSeoscukjICswqhB8S5pjxOp4oHFeRHOKYlQ1+A6uoSsjBVPhlXE8q8HRI GEe9gEhZteaWAH1LTt/BULEq3b7LprGLFIoeVNG8gTkvI7f4QTfCcVqFHdAkKmM/kAcQohjtcVUF 3+Vuhuh38ANOFrr7DiWOu0+vBrdp6Ig0CxA9MxHal1CqnQoc0+TvyjGjUI9tDFxcOYYC+OLrxxWR 9bYW4k3Yk6oyYftE+V2EO1l0u1wE9O2vuVt4kuwRCPP5jeddyX1Xcr3/fMldlM9nLbSz2gplV/cN tik2LXK8sEMeU8YGasrIDWmaZAn7RNCHQb3OnA5JcWJKI3jM6rqDCwU2a5Dg6iOqokGEU2iw654m EsqMdChRyiUc7MxwJW2NhyZd2WNhUx8YbD2QWO3ywA6v6OH8XFCQMbtNaA6fOaMVTeCszFauZERB 7ddhVtdCnZlb3YhmSp3DrVAZfDivGgwW1oQGBEHbAlZehfO5Zg0HE8xIoO1u997cLcYLF+kiGeGA ZD7Ses/7qG6clMeKuQmA2KnwkT7knWK1EreWJvsG3M7ipDK7xgJ2uffexEt5BM+8pPP2RDqypJyc LEFHba/VXG56yMdp2xvDmRYe4xS8LnXPh1kIF0O+EjbsT01mk+Uzb7ZyxdwkqMM1hbX7nMJOHUiF VFtYRjY0zFQWAizRnKz8y00w60UpYCP9NaRYWYNg+NekADu6riXjMfFV2dmlEW07+5qVUj5RRAyi 4AiN2ETsY3C/DlXQJ6ASriZMRdAvcI+mrW2m3OKcJV359srg7DhmaYSzcqtTNM9kCzd5XMhg3kri gW6Vshvlzq+KSfkLUqUcxv8zVfR+AjcFK4H2gA/XuAIjna9tjwsVcahCaUT9voDGwdQOiBa4i4Vp CCq4TDb/BTnU/23OWRomreHAp/ZpiASF/UhFgpA9KEsm+k4hVs/2LkuSZYRMRJXElakVe0QOCRvq Griq93YPRRDqpppkZcDgTsaf+55l0CjUTU4535waUuy9Ngf+6c7HJjMo5dZh09Dk9i9ErNhV7Xqz PN97y4roiVmb1cizApiVtoJWlvavKcI5t1pbseY0Xm7mwoEX5zWGwaIhSuG+B+k/sP9R4TP7ZUJv qEO+D7UVwYcGTQzCBqL6km08kC6QdnAEjZMdtMGkSVnTZq2Ttlq+WV9wp1vwPWFsLdlZ/H1OYxfN mcvOycWLNHZmYcfWdmyhqcGzJ1MUhsb5QcY4xnzSKn914qN74OgtuN+fMCVNMME3JYGh9RyYPIDk txzN0o2/AAAA//8DAFBLAwQUAAYACAAAACEADdGQn7YAAAAbAQAAJwAAAHRoZW1lL3RoZW1lL19y ZWxzL3RoZW1lTWFuYWdlci54bWwucmVsc4SPTQrCMBSE94J3CG9v07oQkSbdiNCt1AOE5DUNNj8k UeztDa4sCC6HYb6ZabuXnckTYzLeMWiqGgg66ZVxmsFtuOyOQFIWTonZO2SwYIKObzftFWeRSyhN JiRSKC4xmHIOJ0qTnNCKVPmArjijj1bkIqOmQci70Ej3dX2g8ZsBfMUkvWIQe9UAGZZQmv+z/Tga iWcvHxZd/lFBc9mFBSiixszgI5uqTATKW7q6xN8AAAD//wMAUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhAOneD7// AAAAHAIAABMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFtDb250ZW50X1R5cGVzXS54bWxQSwECLQAUAAYACAAA ACEApdan58AAAAA2AQAACwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAQAAX3JlbHMvLnJlbHNQSwECLQAUAAYACAAA ACEAa3mWFoMAAACKAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZAgAAdGhlbWUvdGhlbWUvdGhlbWVNYW5hZ2Vy LnhtbFBLAQItABQABgAIAAAAIQCWta3ilgYAAFAbAAAWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANYCAAB0aGVtZS90 aGVtZS90aGVtZTEueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhAA3RkJ+2AAAAGwEAACcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA oAkAAHRoZW1lL3RoZW1lL19yZWxzL3RoZW1lTWFuYWdlci54bWwucmVsc1BLBQYAAAAABQAFAF0B AACbCgAAAAA= ------=_NextPart_01D475D5.320FD810 Content-Location: file:///C:/B1334A50/110_files/colorschememapping.xml Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/xml ------=_NextPart_01D475D5.320FD810 Content-Location: file:///C:/B1334A50/110_files/header.htm Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<= !--[if supportFields]> PAGE 33583339